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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I heard a report on the radio some weeks ago how America now ranks ranges between the middle and closer to the bottom as it relates to the sciences, math and even literature (read a few articles on it too over the years as it relates to falling standards)... Nations like Singapore, China and Finland are between the top or amongst the top 5 in these same subjects... and you know what else I found out today, that about 50% of highschool kids can't even pass the basic military entrance exams. Think about that, along with the fact that only 3/4 of highschoolers graduate and it's even significantly lower for african american's and latinos (about 50-55% graduate)... and in some cases, there are examples of GRADE INFLATION so alot of the HS graduates can't even graduate in higher educational institutes.

If you want to see the future of America, you have to look on the falling stands in education today... and it speaks volumes when the home school kids do BETTER than government educated kids on average... that's pathetic, they keep telling us how government is there to "help." IMHO, all I see is a generation even more brain dead than the last. While in other countries they are becoming MORE EDUCATED and making things, Americans are becoming more lazy and less educated...
I don't want to be here long enough to see the end results if this trend does not end.

The health of a nation is that of an informed public, as well as a productive one, America is slowing slipping away towards death, as if it had cancer... I guess that fits well in the "new" economy which will more likely resemble surfdome than one based on free market capitalism ("too big to fail" does not fall into freemarket capitalism!)... you can't have the surfs THINKING, so why have a healthy educational system if all you need is more shelf stackers at walmart pumping out "made in China" and welfare recipients who vote themselves more handouts in this "new" economy, run top down by financial and political criminals?
 

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Dude, it's spelled serf and serfdom. Spelling Fail! :lol:
 

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The problem at the very core of the whole thing is the burgeoning belief that people have the right not to feel bad, to ignore reality.

Junior misbehaves? It's not a problem, it's his personality, or a disease, or society, or incompetent teachers.

Junior and his friends disrupt the class? Teacher can't actually do anything about it without mom pitching a fit to the school.

Every insignificant little perversion of reality builds and builds and builds until you have generations of people who believe nothing is ever their fault, and that the fabric of the universe will change as long as they wish hard enough and complain loud enough.

Reality is supposed to b :cantsay: chslap these people into place once they become adults, but they use their voting power to suck the resources out of people who learned that you can't solve problems by pretending them away.
 

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Well, that definitely fits with my steadfast belief that only idiots could embrace socialism, communism and big government ideals. And with the way the left runs education in this country, it makes sense that they're just using it to make us all obedient followers of their moronic beliefs.
 

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My twelve year old came home from school the other day, and told me he got the highest grade in the class on his midterm, but had to take the test over because the principal told the teacher he was unhappy with the grades of the class. :sly:
 

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Allow an educator to enlighten you on the statistics you just read:

1. America is on the only major industrialized country in the world in which a free appropriate public education is a right to all children between the ages of 5 and 19 for regular education and 4 and 21 for special education.

2. As a recognized right, a school system must grant students the due process of law in order to revoke their right to said education. There has to be a judicial hearing with lawyers representing the school, the parents of the student and the student have the right to legal counsel, and a committee hears evidence concerning the students. You can't just kick out little Johnny because he's bad.

3. If a student has emotional, behavioral, or psychological disorders that in any way might cause the behavior that could get a normal student kicked out of school, it legally can not be held against them. The school must make accommodations for the student, even if that requires them paying for placement at a private institution.

4. Thanks to NCLB, EVERYONE has to take the high stakes and graduation tests. It doesn't matter if a student is the youngest member of MENSA or if they are a 20 year old that has to wear a bib and a diaper, they all take the same tests and have to pass them.

5. Because of the fact that EVERYONE has the right to an education, it is darn near impossible to kick a kid out of schools (especially since it reflects negatively on AYP), and EVERYONE gets tested, we are considered lower than other countries. The study doesn't mention the fact that in China if you don't make the grades, you don't stay in school. Many students in European and Asian countries have to pay to go to school. If they don't, they must provide other things - such as books - for themselves.

6. Home schooled children tend to outperform publicly educated students, regardless of the location. The fact that they're American doesn't make any difference. When done properly, there is no way for them not to, on average, outperform publicly educated people. It is impossible for a regular classroom teacher with somewhere between 28 and 34 students to devote the amount of time to a student a parent who is home schooling can. We have to develop lesson plans that engage all learners. That might sound easy, but when you have reading levels in a 6h grade classroom ranging from 1st to 11th grade, as well as three students who are considered special ed in the same class, it ain't easy. Someone home schooling their children can tailor their instructional strategies to their child's interests, learning styles, and cognitive abilities.

7. As for the thinking part, IMO you can blame that on NCLB as well. We have raised a generation of standardized test takers and developed curriculum standards that require only low level thinking skills. Look at the high school World History standards for Georgia. The standards may be somewhat indicative of higher order thinking (analyze, etc.), but the elements of the standards are all describe, identify, and explain. There's also a lot of fluff thrown in the standards. They aren't even tested on anything Pre-Renaissance in the Graduation Test, but we have to cover it. And the last standard (they are chronological for World History) is a "bologna" standard. They throw in everything they left out. "Oh, we need more women to make the feminists happy. How about we throw in Margaret Thatcher?!"

8. They are starting to slowly fix the system. NCLB, though making schools more accountable, was a pipedream. America will not have a 100% high school graduation rate by 2013 or 2014 (I forget which one it is). It's just impossible.

Not everyone in the education system is some left leaning socialist. There are many of us who are new to the game who have a completely different idea about what the educational system should look like. Sometimes you have to become a part of the machine to fix it.

It won't stay this way forever. Trust me. The Georgia Board of Regents recently met with the Georgia Board of Education to discuss the issues they were seeing with incoming freshmen. Many schools have had to have remedial composition and literature classes to help students who have had little to no writing experience beyond a two page, double spaced paper. Many have also had to introduce critical thinking classes into the requirements for first semester freshmen, or include them in a freshmen orientation course. That should tell you something. The NCLB generation will suffer, but at least we have learned what hasn't worked and what we need to do to fix it.
 

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Hunley said:
Allow an educator to enlighten you on the statistics you just read:

1. America is on the only major industrialized country in the world in which a free appropriate public education is a right to all children between the ages of 5 and 19 for regular education and 4 and 21 for special education.

<snipped>

Not everyone in the education system is some left leaning socialist. There are many of us who are new to the game who have a completely different idea about what the educational system should look like. Sometimes you have to become a part of the machine to fix it.

It won't stay this way forever. Trust me. The Georgia Board of Regents recently met with the Georgia Board of Education to discuss the issues they were seeing with incoming freshmen. Many schools have had to have remedial composition and literature classes to help students who have had little to no writing experience beyond a two page, double spaced paper. Many have also had to introduce critical thinking classes into the requirements for first semester freshmen, or include them in a freshmen orientation course. That should tell you something. The NCLB generation will suffer, but at least we have learned what hasn't worked and what we need to do to fix it.
Hunley, thank you for your work as a teacher! I'm glad to see that many folks recognize the issues with NCLB, which was a Charlie-Foxtrot from the beginning (In My Opinion) and are working to FIX the system. When the public schools started dumbing down the classes, and teaching to the slowest student, I pulled my kids out and sent them to a local private school. There, they are held individually accountable for their grades, behavior, etc.

And by the way, aint nothin' free...our taxes pay for it!!! :p
 

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1. America is on the only major industrialized country in the world in which a free appropriate public education is a right to all children between the ages of 5 and 19 for regular education and 4 and 21 for special education.

What? All first-world countries provide some degree of free education, and is often equal in years to that of the US, including Finland, France, Germany, India, Mexico, Russia, Slovenia, Britain, China, and Canada.

2. As a recognized right, a school system must grant students the due process of law in order to revoke their right to said education. There has to be a judicial hearing with lawyers representing the school, the parents of the student and the student have the right to legal counsel, and a committee hears evidence concerning the students. You can't just kick out little Johnny because he's bad.
Don't kick him out, DISCIPLINE him.

Many have also had to introduce critical thinking classes into the requirements for first semester freshmen, or include them in a freshmen orientation course. That should tell you something.
That's the best news I've heard in a long, long time.
 

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Hack Causality said:
2. As a recognized right, a school system must grant students the due process of law in order to revoke their right to said education. There has to be a judicial hearing with lawyers representing the school, the parents of the student and the student have the right to legal counsel, and a committee hears evidence concerning the students. You can't just kick out little Johnny because he's bad.
Don't kick him out, DISCIPLINE him.
I wish we could.
Time out, ISS, OSS, stern talking to, email/phone call to parent - that's about it.
Some of these get him out of class (that's great in his eyes), the parents of this child don't care.
I have alot of great parents but not the ones of little Johnny.
In other words we can't really do anything to him that bothers him and he knows it.

But I go in everyday and try.
:righton:
 

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The Math Teacher said:
Time out, ISS, OSS, stern talking to, email/phone call to parent - that's about it.
I have a teenager who just loves ISS because it gets him away from the idiots in class. :roll:

I've been ranting about education standards for some time - as an engineer I've been watching the new batches of engineers coming into industry with no clue as to what end of the soldering iron is the hot end. It is no surprise that companies are shifting design and development out of western countries (where the standards are declining and fewer people are studying science and eng.) into Asian and eastern European countries where the education standards of engineers is higher.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
drtybykr said:
My twelve year old came home from school the other day, and told me he got the highest grade in the class on his midterm, but had to take the test over because the principal told the teacher he was unhappy with the grades of the class. :sly:
Sounds similar to the case where some firefighters had to give up promotions because others failed a test they had to take... some years ago it was all over the news and the bums in the media wanted to use the race card.
 

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I've just finished reading Outliers: The Story of Success. In it, Malcolm Gladwell makes the case that Asian cultures in particular spend a lot more time educating children than western cultures, and the lack of a long summer holiday accounts for some of the difference in educational achievement. Interestingly, he blames the difference on historical agricultural practices, with those of the west having short flurries of activity for planting and harvest (thus the need for a break from school) and those in the east having ongoing, continuous cultivation of rice (thus, learning to fit school into a year-round schedule).

Very, very interesting book that challenges the whole idea of success being entirely self-made.
 

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Hack Causality said:

1. America is on the only major industrialized country in the world in which a free appropriate public education is a right to all children between the ages of 5 and 19 for regular education and 4 and 21 for special education.

What? All first-world countries provide some degree of free education, and is often equal in years to that of the US, including Finland, France, Germany, India, Mexico, Russia, Slovenia, Britain, China, and Canada.
They do provide SOME degree. HOWEVER, we are the ONLY major industrialized country where it is a RIGHT. Just like freedom of speech, privacy, and freedom of assembly, all American students have the right to free appropriate public education. Free as in there is no cost. Appropriate as in the school has to provide the least restrictive environment for the students, even if that means a school system has to send the student to a private institution. These are the rights as determined by legislation and SCOTUS.

It is NOT a right in the countries you listed. As such, it is much easier for those schools to remove problems students. Maybe that scares some of the students straight. Maybe by weeding out the bad apples they make the good ones shine and doom the bad ones to mundane non-skilled labor. Either way, they don't have the burden placed on them to take away that right for the students.
 

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Hunley said:
Maybe by weeding out the bad apples they make the good ones shine and doom the bad ones to mundane non-skilled labor. Either way, they don't have the burden placed on them to take away that right for the students.
And maybe that's part of the problem: "mundane unskilled labor".

Public education continues to teach an ever more narrow skill set.

What, exactly, is wrong with being a good - let's say - Harley mechanic? Lumber salesman? Plumber?

Doesn't a society NEED people who do those jobs?
Do they require a college education?
A kid who does poorly at algebra, poetry and history might just be far better off if he were out of school and apprenticing with a
carpenter, plumber, mechanic...

At least he'd be interested, and by the time his peers had finished their BS degrees, he'd have been doing something useful and earning a salary for several years.
 

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groats said:
Hunley said:
Maybe by weeding out the bad apples they make the good ones shine and doom the bad ones to mundane non-skilled labor. Either way, they don't have the burden placed on them to take away that right for the students.
And maybe that's part of the problem: "mundane unskilled labor".

Public education continues to teach an ever more narrow skill set.

What, exactly, is wrong with being a good - let's say - Harley mechanic? Lumber salesman? Plumber?

Doesn't a society NEED people who do those jobs?
Do they require a college education?
A kid who does poorly at algebra, poetry and history might just be far better off if he were out of school and apprenticing with a
carpenter, plumber, mechanic...

At least he'd be interested, and by the time his peers had finished their BS degrees, he'd have been doing something useful and earning a salary for several years.
We already have that: It's called the Tech route in high school. Instead of taking classes in normal academics, they have the opporunity to go to shop class, metal working, and all of the other classes. Ive said it thousand time and I'll say it again: This all starts at home with the parents. No ands if or buts about it. If you parents don't put forth the effort to work with kids at home at an early age then of course ur kid goes to school dumber than a rock. When I was a kid my parents sat down and had game cards with letters, math, memory games, and the list goes on. My parents wanted me to be successful. We're at a time in our lives where the average paents are so wrapped up in their daily do's that they dont spend the appropriate time to sit down with their kids and play games that help develope their minds. It shows completely when my wifes best friend brings her girl over to the house and she is not even old enough to go to pre-k and she can carry a great convo with adults. But let our other friend bring his son over of the same age and the child is still grasping english.

We will have less unprepared and behind kids when parents of those kids start caring more about their kids development than they do about the football game or vampire diaries.
 

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I agree. Part of the problem is that public education does not teach children critical thinking skills. To think for themselves, and to question the conventional wisdom, do their own research, and question what they are told. They are told, this is the answer, now memorize it, regurgitate it on a test.

They are taught just enough to be able to fill out the paper work and run the machines in the factories, or computers in an office. No more, no less.

Public education is meant to basically teach a liberal revision of our country's history to our children.

I only had one 8th grade teacher, Mr. Pascal, that ever told me to question what I was being told, do not believe everything you are taught, to question with boldness. I didn't know what the heck he was talking about at the time, but now I sure do.

I'm sure some of you saw the news story about a few liberal groups suing the Texas School Board, because the decided to take some of the liberal myths about our history out of their text books.

Texas Curriculum Changes Prompt Civil Rights Groups To Seek Review Of Public Schools In Lone Star State

HOUSTON â€" Two civil rights organizations are seeking a federal review of public school education in Texas, accusing state school administrators of violating federal civil rights laws after curriculum changes approved earlier this year by the Texas Board of Education.

The request to the U.S. Department of Education made by the Texas NAACP and Texas League of United Latin American Citizens on Monday contended that the curriculum changes passed in May "were made with the intention to discriminate" and would have a "stigmatizing impact" on African-American and Latino students....

The request, signed by Gary Bledsoe, president of the state NAACP, and Joey D. Cardenas Jr., state director of Texas LULAC, asked that implementation of the curriculum changes and new standardized tests be stopped for being racially or ethnically offensive or historically inaccurate.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/2 ... 99510.html

The liberal groups are willing to get into the court systems and fight for the minds of our youth, but conservatives sure haven't done a thing to set the curriculum and these liberal deceptions straight that are taught in our public schools.

The liberals were very smart. They decided to try and make teaching a liberal profession, and all but try to prevent conservative teachers from teaching at their schools. This started around the 60's and 70's and is in full swing today. Not to mention a lot of the school books now have blatant historical inaccurate in them.

IMHO, they knew if they could ever teach enough liberal inaccuracies and half-truth to our children and get them to believe it, that they would greatly expand the Democratic voting base, and even turn the Republican party more liberal, and turn our country would become more and more liberal as time has gone on. I would say they have greatly succeeded. America has voted in one of the most liberal presidents since the time of FDR. People want Socialism and Marxism now. People think that redistribution of wealth is a great thing for America and our economy. People think its wonderful that our government can own and control private businesses. People agree that Big Government is going to keep us all safe at any cost, even if it cost all of our rights to do it.

Couple that with the mostly liberal media in this country, and you've got a home run for the liberals in this country. Heck, even the Republican party now agrees with and perpetuates Socialist programs, now. Just a Socialist-lite so to speak.

America is in a world of hurt right now, and I believe that falls directly at the feet of our public education system in this country.

I know there are good teachers out there, I had a couple coming along, more so once I got to college, and I thank everyone of them that told me that what was in the text book wasn't true, and it was a bunch of crap. So anyway, if you know one of these teachers or professors out there, please go give them a pat on the back and thank them for what they do everyday.
 

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drtybykr said:
My twelve year old came home from school the other day, and told me he got the highest grade in the class on his midterm, but had to take the test over because the principal told the teacher he was unhappy with the grades of the class. :sly:
my son had to re-take a test 2 weeks ago because he made the highest grade in the class.
 

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270sniper said:
drtybykr said:
My twelve year old came home from school the other day, and told me he got the highest grade in the class on his midterm, but had to take the test over because the principal told the teacher he was unhappy with the grades of the class. :sly:
my son had to re-take a test 2 weeks ago because he made the highest grade in the class.
Nothing new unfortunately. Has happened to me in college, as well as in (believe it or not) a LE academy. Really rubs me the wrong way when I bust my butt to study HARD for an exam on a difficult topic, but the rest of the class obviously does not take it as seriously. Three quarters fail, a couple of others and myself do well, and the damn exam gets thrown out because obviously there was something wrong with it, and we all have to take a "revised" test!
 
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