Wheel-gunner with semi-auto questions

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Boy Racer, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. Boy Racer

    Boy Racer New Member

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    Please forgive my ignorance, as I own a semi-auto, but it's for fun at the range, my carry weapon of choice has always been a wheel gun.

    What, specifically, is cocked-n-locked? Are you saying you rack a round into the chamber, set the safety and holster the weapon? And walk around like that? It seems foreign to me.

    I've always carried revolvers with pin-type hammers cowboy (with the chambered cylinder empty), but don't worry so much about that with my S&W 060 as it has a flat-type hammer, and I don't fear the accidental shot.

    My Baby Eagle has the 1/2-cocked feature. Would it be acceptable to rack the slide, drop the hammer to 1/2, set the safety and carry that way?

    What components/features does an automatic need to safely be carried c-n-l'd? Is it inherit in all DOA semis, or does the gun require a firing pin block or something?
     
  2. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    Cocked and Locked, unless I am woefully misinformed, comes from 1911 type pistols where there is a round in the chamber, the hammer is back, and the safety in in the on position locking the slide and the trigger.

    Yes, it would be fine for you to carry for baby eagle that way. Just put it an quality holster and forget about it. Hell, you could carry with the safety off if you have it in a good holster.

    DAO pistols don't typically have a safety. There is no need.

    Basically, if you can have the gun with its hammer back and the safety on that is cocked and locked.
     

  3. Adam5

    Adam5 Atlanta Overwatch

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    Bingo !!!

    You can't exactly carry a Baby Eagle cocked and locked, since the safety decocks the hammer. When I carried mine, I had a round in the chamber, safety on, and hammer half cocked (unless I'm confusing it with the way the safety on my Beratta 92FS worked). My Walther PPK/S decocks fully when you engage the safety. Am I the only one that has a decock safety, and flinches when you engage the safety and the hammer falls on a loaded chamber?
     
  4. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    I would. That just seems wrong.
     
  5. Adam5

    Adam5 Atlanta Overwatch

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    I flinch every time.
     
  6. Boy Racer

    Boy Racer New Member

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    No, it doesn't. I wish it did. My neighbor's old Taurus PT-92 had a de-cock and so too did my other neighbor's Sig.
    That's what I wonder about my Baby Eagle. And that's a secure condition for carry? It just seems weird to have a round in there like that. I guess I don't know enough about the mechanics of my 9mm to understand it.
    I don't, after seeing how they worked on those other two guns I mentioned. I was told it had something to do with blocking the firing pin mechanically from contacting the cap. The hammer wouldn't decock without first being blocked. :shrug: I dunno.

    The other issue I have with my 9mm when 1/2 cocked, is that you can't pull the trigger, even with the safety off. You have to pull the hammer back to full cock with your thumb.

    I mean, if it's already got one in the chamber -cocked and locked w/ the safety on- why not just put one in the chamber, de-cock it, put the safety on (unless the gun could go off cause the hammer is down.)? That way you draw, drop the safety during the draw, and fire. The first pull would be a long trigger, but the rest after that would be short.

    I guess I'm asking at this point is: does moving the hammer to 1/2 or full cock mechanically prevent accidental fire in the holster, which would otherwise *not* be prevented with the hammer at rest?

    Does the safety prevent the trigger from actuating the hammer, or prevent the hammer from actuating the firing pin? Or neither? Or both?

    Watch: it depends on the gun, right?
     
  7. Adam5

    Adam5 Atlanta Overwatch

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    That's the way I carry my PPK/S. The exception is that the PPK/S safety/decocker are one in the same.

    Exactly, it does vary from gun to gun.

    The other option is to chamber a round, holster and go. Some people say that this too dangerous, but alot of carry guns have no safety or decocker. Safety is using a goodholster that completely covers the trigger, and remembering to keep the booger hook off the bang switch. My Glock 17 comes to mind as an example of this.
     
  8. DrGlock

    DrGlock New Member

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    Hmmm, cocked and locked:

    Ramm is correct, this is a 1911 term for chambered, cocked, and safety on. It is safe, but those 1911 safeteys sure move to fire aweful easy.

    Half cocked: not a good idea. In this position extra force is placed ont he sear, and most manufactureres will not guarantee against accidental discharge i this position. The sear is not meant to hold the hammer half cocked, it is only a safety mechanism in case you lose grip of the hammer during cocking.

    Deckocker: I can only speak about beretta, but both the 92fs ands Px4 have a decocker available on some models, which lowers the hammer after rotating the firing pin 90 degrees so it cannot be struck.

    Also, beretta has inertia spring loaded firing pins, so even if you turn the safety/decocker off, and carry with one in the chamber, you would have to theoretically pull the hammer past the semi cocked postion to overcome the inertia driven firing pin and cause a strike to the primer!

    Hope this helps.


    VIVA LA GLOCK!!! 8)
     
  9. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    You have revolvers, yes? How many of their triggers move by themselves when it is in a holster?

    Zero? Sounds about right.
     
  10. Boy Racer

    Boy Racer New Member

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    The 1/2-cock full cock question doesn't, in my mind, relate to the trigger actuating the hammer. I'm not concerned with pulling the trigger when holstered.

    I would worry more about actuating the hammer without using the trigger. As in hanging up the hammer on something, or an impact to the back of the hammer driving the pin into the cap on the shell, firing the round. That's why I'm asking if the half or full cock somehow removes that possibility.

    My rudimentary knowledge of gun operation is that a gun with a live round, in a chamber, with an uncocked hammer behind it, can be fired when you drive the hammer into the cap, without using the trigger. Some of my old revolvers would do that, anyway.

    I just wondered if this was a real concern when carring cocked and locked or half cocked in an automatic.
     
  11. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday New Member

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    If I were to carry the Baby Eagle, I would carry in a good holster, round chambered, hammer down. I would also keep the safety off because of the long DA first pull which is just like one of your DA revolvers. I don't understand the need for a safety on modern DA autos like the M92 etc.

    Can someone convince me the need for a safety on a modern DA pistol? I guess I have been around my Sigs for too long.
     
  12. Watch_Their_Hands

    Watch_Their_Hands New Member

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    Sounds right to me. I used to own two glocks, a 19 and a 20. They were always chambered, hammer down, safety on. Our girls were small then.

    I few years ago I decided to go back to wheel guns. I now carry a Tarus .357 snubby six-shot and a .38 snubby five-shot. Now, with my thumb break OWB, I never worry about an accidental firing. I never really do with my IWB eaither. The long trigger pull makes it near impossible. I think in another thread a few weeks ago this was discussed, and the conclusion was that there is never an accidental firing. I believe this to be true.
     
  13. ThetaReactor

    ThetaReactor Active Member

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    Modern SA pistols [and those DA/SA that allow it] have internal safeties to prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin while the safety is enabled. I've heard stories of 1911 hammers ending up bent after huge impacts, yet nothing fired. With proper handling procedures, a cocked and locked SA is every bit as safe as a DA. You could bang away all day on my HP and it won't go bang until you drop that safety. It's got the SFS system, too, so it's very obvious if the safety's off.

    Since we seem to have a fair amount of Sig/HK/Glock boys here who don't know how a proper gun works ;), I'll go over the basics of SA carry options.

    Condition 1: Cocked'n'locked. Hammer back, safety on, one in the pipe.

    Condition 2: Round chambered, hammer down. Stupid. This only works on DA guns with a decocker.

    Condition 3: Empty chamber, hammer down. This requires that one rack the slide before firing. Leave such oddness to the Israelis.

    So, obviously, condition one is the only logical option for a SA pistol.
     
  14. Adam5

    Adam5 Atlanta Overwatch

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    Cosked and Locked is how I plan on carrying my 9mm 1911 when I get it. After a few hundred rounds of 'reliability/feed testing'.
     
  15. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    You're comparing Hk and Sig with GLOCKS?
     
  16. ThetaReactor

    ThetaReactor Active Member

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    They're all new-fangled hi-technical Evil Black Guns, are they not? You want me to toss XDs in there, just to piss off some more people? :D
     
  17. gsusnake

    gsusnake Token Liberal Hippie

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    I know exactly how a proper gun works.

    I take it out of the holster, point it at whatever I want to destroy, and pull the trigger all the way to the rear until it goes bang.

    No safeties to disengage.

    No need to cock the hammer.

    Draw, point, squeeze, BANG. Repeat as needed.
     
  18. ThetaReactor

    ThetaReactor Active Member

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    Geez. Is there a bigger wink emoticon here that I'm missing? :lol:
     
  19. ber950

    ber950 Active Member

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    It also doesn't have a magazine disconect. I want my gun to still work if the mag is lost.
     
  20. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    For gsusnake? No. you'd need one approximately the size of the moon. It can double for use with Macktee, too, since his eyesight is terrible.