[Macktee]

How can this

http://www.kel-tec.com/plr16.html

be a pistol, while these aren't?

http://www.impactguns.com/store/Pre-028384.html

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displ ... um=7924801

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displ ... um=7941585

Especially that first one, which is also .223 cal. The other two are 12 ga.

They don't look all that different to my non-expert eyes. All are two handed "pistols" and semi-auto. They do the same job about equally.

So, what's the difference? I've seen "pistols" that look like short barreled rifles and SBRs that look an awful lot like some "pistols".

Why does the BATF rule one way on one and the other on another, other than just because they can???

 

[Adam5]

I'm no expert, but I'll take a shot at it. Not counting the PLR16.

The 1st has a collapable stock classifying it as a rifle.

The 2nd, being a pump action means that it's designed for two handed use, which classifies it as a rifle.

The 3rd has a foward grip which makes it get classified as a rifle. Just like if you put a foregrip on any pistol, it would be classified ar a short barrel rifle.

 

[foshizzle]

The stock that the first one has makes it a rifle. The other 3... well two are SBR's and the other is an AOW.

Pistols generally shoot pistol ammo, can be shot with one hand and don't have a stock or forward hand grip. ATF has legalesed it to death and it's out there for reading. I can't read all that crap lol.

There must be some kind of exception for the Kel-Tec. I think that overall length would be the primary factor. You make some kind of shoulder stock (coathanger, lol) and put it on that PLR and it's an SBR.

Now I went and confused myself #-o

 

[gunsmoker]

Shoulder Stock

If it was designed for use with a shoulder stock, to be fired from the shoulder, then it cannot be a "handgun." It has to be a rifle or shotgun, although of the "Short Barrel" variety if the barrel isn't at least 16 for rifles, 18" for scatterguns. That's why AR-15 style handguns have to be built on special frames whose serial numbers were designated by the manufacturer as "pistol" frames only.

 

[gunsmoker]

Forward Grip on Pistols?

Adam, who says that if you put a forward handgrip on a pistol, to facilitate a two-hand hold, you're making it a SBR? Do you have a citation to a law or a court case or some expert saying so? Lots of people have Cobray /SWD "Mac-11" pistols, and a common accessory for them is to install a vertical foregrip, usually in a set along with a barrel extension.

The federal definition of a handgun or pistol is NOT a gun that was meant to be fired with a one-handed grip, if that's what you're getting at.

 

[Rammstein]

An SBR is any rifle under 16" iirc.

 

[Adam5]

Re: Forward Grip on Pistols?

Adam, who says that if you put a forward handgrip on a pistol, to facilitate a two-hand hold, you're making it a SBR? Do you have a citation to a law or a court case or some expert saying so? Lots of people have Cobray /SWD "Mac-11" pistols, and a common accessory for them is to install a vertical foregrip, usually in a set along with a barrel extension.

The federal definition of a handgun or pistol is NOT a gun that was meant to be fired with a one-handed grip, if that's what you're getting at.

I'll have to see if I can find where I read it. I think is was on the cover of a Top Glock catalog. It showed a pic of a G17 with a vertical foregrip attached to the accesory rail and asked the question of if it was legal. The answer they gave was that putting a foregrip on it, legally made it a SBR, giving it class III status.

 

[Rammstein]

I can't possibly see how that fits the legal definition of a short barreled rifle.

US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Sec. 921. says...

(8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Source

 

[ber950]

It falls under the definition of AOW. Any other weapon. I haven't been able to find a good definition for AOW mainly because it is a catch all catagory for any evil looking or extra devious firearm. Examples

A shotgun with a standard stock and 10" barrel is a Sawed off Shotgun with a $200 dollar transfer tax.
A shotgun manufactured with a pistol grip and 10" barrel is an AOW with a $5 transfer tax.

A pistol with an open top and closed trigger area wallet holster is a pistol in a holster.
A pistol in shoot through wallet holster is an AOW.

A Cell phone gun is an AOW.

And for the mentioned Glock a pistol with more than one grip is an AOW.

 

[tj2000]

How can this

http://www.kel-tec.com/plr16.html

be a pistol, while these aren't?

http://www.impactguns.com/store/Pre-028384.html

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displ ... um=7924801

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displ ... um=7941585

Especially that first one, which is also .223 cal. The other two are 12 ga.

They don't look all that different to my non-expert eyes. All are two handed "pistols" and semi-auto. They do the same job about equally.

So, what's the difference? I've seen "pistols" that look like short barreled rifles and SBRs that look an awful lot like some "pistols".

Why does the BATF rule one way on one and the other on another, other than just because they can???

Macktee,
If you look at my avatar you will see one of the sweetist PLR-16 in the south. It is easy to hold like a pistol and is virtually recoiless and it shoots the nato 5.56 (.223) with considerable accuracy. It's serial number is in the 300's and they are hard to get for a reasonable price. Mine cost around $650 after all the accessorizing I did. I had to get mine from a dealer in Florida where they are made.
Just like my S&W High perfomance hunter 500 Magnum, it turns heads at the rifle range.
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Take care,

 

[Adam5]

I couldn't find the catalog with the picture and question it, but now that Ber mentioned it, I think it did say AOW not SBR.

 

[Macktee]

The variety and disagreements in the answers to my questions only makes me wonder even more. Why are some guns "pistols" and some that look pretty much like them are "AOWs" or "SBRs"? If this group can't agree... OK, I rest my case.

But I still would like to know. I really do have an inquiring mind, ya know, which has gotten me in a lot of trouble over the years..........!!!