What Would You Do - Plain Clothes Security Westling Customer

Discussion in 'Off-topic' started by Mike from Philly, Sep 8, 2007.

  1. Mike from Philly

    Mike from Philly New Member

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  2. Thorsen

    Thorsen New Member

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    Call 911. Be a good witness. Nothing more. If the guy gets away, oh well. I'm not about to get involved with a private company's security guard making what amounts to a citizen's arrest.

    If it were a police officer wrestling with a suspect .... call 911, be a good witness, intervene only if the police officer specifically asked for my help.

    What I found funny about this were all the people standing around shouting at the security guard to let him go and then shouting at him to read the guy his miranda rights and show a badge. People are truly ignorant.
     

  3. wsweeks2

    wsweeks2 New Member

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    Very good point. The best part about working LP back in the day was that we didn't have to read anyone their rights. They had the right not to come into my store and try and lift something that wasn't theirs. That was where their rights stopped with me.
     
  4. zookeper

    zookeper Active Member

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    how about the guy that walked up, stood on that guys legs while posing for the camera.
     
  5. gsusnake

    gsusnake Token Liberal Hippie

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    Pop some popcorn.

    Crack open a beer.

    Pull up a chair.

    Take bets.
     
  6. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I have encountered this circumstance twice, unexpectedly, and I assisted through the exertion of physical force both times. In both situations it was readily apparent who was what and that if I did not intervene, a thief would escape arrest. As always, I chose to "take thieves."
     
  7. AV8R

    AV8R Banned

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    You can take the LEO off of the force, but you can't take the force out of the LEO. :wink:
     
  8. wsweeks2

    wsweeks2 New Member

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    Is this how MP does his "armchair quarterbacking"?
     
  9. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired Active Member

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    OK how about this one. Yesterday I stopped by the Winn-Dixie to grab a couple of items. As is my norm I was packing openly. While I am checking out the cashier noticed a guy walking out with something large on his shoulder and asked the next cashier over if he had paid. Both got a concerned look then the other one went to get a manager who promptly ran out to find the guy. As I was walking out to my car I saw the manager and the guy arguing then the guy got in his car and started to back out with the manager standing right behind his car. The manager moved just as the guy gunned it squeeling tires out backwards while the manager is dialing 911 the guy tears out of the parking lot headed out of town.

    Now my question.

    I was in a posistion to have stopped the guy from leaving but it would have required me to draw on him and at that time he had not done anything that would have justified deadly force. By the time he was endangering life (almost backing over the manager) it was too late. Should I have acted or not?
     
  10. wsweeks2

    wsweeks2 New Member

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    In this case, I would not have done anything.
     
  11. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    You gotta be sure, USMC-Retired. If you are wrong, you have no immunity, as does a police officer (all the officer needs is a reasonable belief that he is right).

    If you are unsure, you could be opening yourself to a whole can of worms.

    Plus, why draw the gun? It is not like you are going to shoot him for leaving. I do not even understand why you would draw a firearm in the situation you describe.
     
  12. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired Active Member

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    Which is why I didn't.

    The only thing that makes me ask is how CLOSE this guy came to running over the manager. He definately tried to, the manager was just lucky enough to get out of the way first. Had he run over the manager I would have felt bad for not stepping in I think...
     
  13. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, surely you can shoot somebody who is trying to run someone over, but that is an extremely rare circumstance.
     
  14. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    Even then, I don't know if I'd try shooting at a moving car. I know more or less how to shoot through windows when it's stationary, but I'd be really worried about ricochets when you start adding more variables.
     
  15. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired Active Member

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    Which is why I did nothing... :?


    BTW: MP, you have a PM...
     
  16. merlock

    merlock Active Member

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    Best course of action, given the circumstances.
     
  17. ls1ssdavid

    ls1ssdavid New Member

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    I can tell you for a fact it would not be smart to shoot at a windshield with a 9mm. We were always told while on post in the Corps don't do it with a 9mm berretta we were issued. You need something heavyer on a winshield with the pressure and angle it has. Now the other windows with less of an angle I don't know for sure.
     
  18. ls1ssdavid

    ls1ssdavid New Member

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    First situation. I think it depends on the situation with me actuallying seeing it first hand. It is hard to judge simply reading the post.

    The second discribed by USMC. I would have tried to grab the tag number, other than that exactly what you probobly did. Just watched. It would have not been smart to walk closer to it going on. And by the time you relized the managers life was in danger it would have been over. It wasn't smart for the manager to stand behind the car anyways. Is anything at a supermarket worth your life? Not to me.
     
  19. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    Well, apparently 9mm can get through a Buick windshield: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm though it will fragment before hitting the person. I wouldn't expect that to stop anyone, though once the windshield had sufficiently spidered, you could probably get some solid hits in. Still something I would avoid. The side windows/panels are much weaker, and I wouldn't worry at all about shooting through those, but again, only in a stationary vehicle, since overpenetration is very possible.
     
  20. Thorsen

    Thorsen New Member

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    Why get involved at all in a retail store's theft problem? I understand wanting to be a good citizen, but in the end the store's theft problems are their own. If they can not adequately control it, they will go out of business due to higher prices than their competitors and someone else who can control their inventory shrinkage will fill the void. To me it is too much personal exposure to the possibilities of lawsuit. Or, if something happens to the thief while they are resisting, you may even face criminal charges. Not worth it, in my opinion. If you want to help the retailer out, be observant, call 911 and be a good witness for the police.

    As to the situation with the manager almost being run over. He was not trained right by someone. Most companies do not want their employees to physically detain a thief. I know of no major grocery chain that advocates doing so. Instead you ask them to stop, and if they do not you take down their tag number and physical description and file a police report. In some companies failure to follow SOP on thieves can result in you losing your job. Even if you are not fired, if you are hurt while trying to stop a thief you may not receive coverage from your company for your injuries. Again, not worth it.

    I managed for over twenty years and only once did I ever violate this rule and that was because an unarmed robber had threatened one of my employees and I simply got pissed off. I'm lucky that it all worked out as if I had gotten hurt in the process I most likely would have not been covered by my company because I had violated their SOP on how to deal with robberies. The only reason I did not get fired for violating SOP was the vice president in charge of my division liked me.

    The manager's not too smart actions not withstanding, if you pulled a firearm while the manager was standing behind the vehicle and the bad guy never tried to run him over because you had a firearm in his face, you would probably be charged with a crime because you would not be able to prove that you thought the manager's life was in danger. Conversely, by the time his life was at risk, the bad guy had already performed the action and the manager had jumped out of the way. The only reason I can see to pull a firearm at that point would be if the bad guy made a loop and was coming back for a second chance at turning the manager into road kill.