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I could swear that I read on this board somewhere that when the founders wrote "A well-regulated militia," they weren't talking about laws, but I dont' trust my memory.

One of my lifetime friends (who's a conservative, but also a lifelong chicago area native) sees yesterday's attack in AZ as a failure of the 2A, and says that with a standing army, etc, we no longer need individual militia members, who aren't "regulated" - but when he uses "regulated" he means legislated.

I need calm, coherent, factual information to share with my friend.

Oh, I also need to know that hollow-point ammo isn't "cop-killer" ammo. He seems to think it is. What else could he think? He's from the Chicago area.
 

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Well regulated was a phrase in common use when the Constitution was written.
Nothing to do with laws.
And the part of the sentence in the 2A that contains it is not the declarative part.
Court rulings have interpreted these introductory preambles and found them inferior to the actual declaration.

There's a ton of reference on this issue available with just a few runs at Google which let you see what the experts and courts think the meaning is.

Oh, and most any rifle round bigger than a .22 will pierce Kevlar type vests at a fair distance if that is the standard used for cop killer bullet. Not that piercing it would be the standard. Think 12GA slug.

And even the smallest calibers have a good chance of being lethal if properly aimed.
 

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Under Scrutiny
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"Cop Killer" was a made up media term for the new at the time Winchester Black Talon. It's just a scary label as we all know any bullet can kill.
 

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DC v Heller said:
Finally, the adjective "well-regulated" implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training. See Johnson 1619 ("Regulate": "To adjust by rule or method"); Rawle 121-122; cf. Va. Declaration of Rights § 13 (1776), in 7 Thorpe 3812, 3814 (referring to "a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms").
Read the opinion here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... 0regulated
 

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To be simple and to the point...

Regulated as used in the 2A meant trained and ready for call.

In the early days of the revolution they had the regular army and the militia fighting side by side in some cases. The militia was so ill prepaired for battle they were routed easily. This call for "regulating" (to make regular) the militia was so they would be more ready to take action in case the state was invaded by inside or outside forces. It had nothing to do with the federal or state government.
 

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We used to have an old wall-hanging clock in our kitchen that we always called a grandmother clock with "Regulated" printed across the clock dial. Nothing quite so bold as you see below, but I'm pretty sure that there is no judicial or Federal involvement in it's timekeeping.

 

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reg·u·late Verb /?regy??l?t/
Synonyms:
verb: adjust, control, arrange, settle, order, regularize, tune, set
regulated past tense; regulated past participle; regulates 3rd person singular present; regulating present participle
1. Control or maintain the rate or speed of (a machine or process) so that it operates properly
a hormone that regulates metabolism and organ function
2. Control or supervise (something, esp. a company or business activity) by means of rules and regulations
the organization that regulates fishing in the region
3. Set (a clock or other apparatus) according to an external standard

Put the highlighted words together and I come up with a trained, disciplined group of civilian men that could win a battle in defending this country or remove a corrupt government.

Remind you that a corrupt government can be a small town government....not just federal.
 

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So do all of us civilian gun owners, target shooters, plinkers, and hunters actually make up a "WELL REGULATED" militia?
I know that the unorganized militia is made up of all able-bodies citizens of suitable age, but does that satisfy the "well regulated" part?
Even if "well regulated" is not a mandate that must be met before someone can exercise their gun rights, isn't it something the Framers considered ideal? Didn't they want a Well-Regulated Militia?

So are we well-regulated now?
If not, how can we get to that point that the Framers envisioned?
 

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Yukon Cornelius
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speaking of the word regulate...im watching the movie Young Guns and the owner of the property just came out and referred to his crew of workers are "Regulators"
 

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I am a well-regulated guy... I sit down precisely at 9:35 in the morning to read in the library..... :shattered: Just like clockwork. Should I not be "well-regulated"? Let's not go there. :sly:
 

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Match10 said:
I am a well-regulated guy... I sit down precisely at 9:35 in the morning to read in the library..... :shattered: Just like clockwork. Should I not be "well-regulated"? Let's not go there. :sly:
Interesting!
 

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gunsmoker said:
If not, how can we get to that point that the Framers envisioned?
Appleseed comes to mind.

If not "regulated" in the sense of going through Baron von Steuben's drills, maybe today's version would be trained, knowledgeable, and proficient about the laws and usage regarding your firearm. I wouldn't mind the same sort of culture around driving for that matter. It'd be great if more people took the time to truly learn in more depth whatever they choose to involve themselves with. Carl Sagan's quote about technology comes to mind. (*)

The 2A resonates more with me in today's time when I consider what is supposedly one of its historical sources. The complaint in the English Declaration of Rights that

[T]he late King James the Second . . . did endeavor to subvert and exteripate the Protestant religion and the laws and liberties of this kingdom;
. . .
6. By causing several good subjects being Protestants to be disarmed at the same time when papists were both armed and employed contrary to law;
In other words, it's a nice, very early version of the argument that laws against guns only disarm the law-abiding and does nothing against criminals.

The original draft said, "It is necessary for the public safety that the subjects which are protestants should provide and keep arms for their common defence: and that the arms which have been seized and taken from them be restored." That was changed to put in wording for "Suitable for their conditions and as allowed by law," showing that those in power are always nervous about not having some kind of licensing going on.

But to the extent that this is a historical source for the American 2A, I think it shows that the Founders weren't only about "militia" and "armies" and what-not in their thinking. Considering themselves proper English subjects, they should have thought that the right to bear arms was based also on "public safety" and protection from those "employed contrary to law." They would firmly believe that confiscating guns leaves a law-abiding citizen helpless. Militias were just uppermost in their mind after their recent reveolutionary experience.

(*) We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.
 

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gunsmoker said:
So do all of us civilian gun owners, target shooters, plinkers, and hunters actually make up a "WELL REGULATED" militia?
I know that the unorganized militia is made up of all able-bodies citizens of suitable age, but does that satisfy the "well regulated" part?
Even if "well regulated" is not a mandate that must be met before someone can exercise their gun rights, isn't it something the Framers considered ideal? Didn't they want a Well-Regulated Militia?

So are we well-regulated now?
If not, how can we get to that point that the Framers envisioned?
In the early days of the revolution against England the militia was unorganized. The framers envisioned the militia as being better trained and well organized. However the states took too much control then the Federal Government took even more control. The regulated militia failed to see what was happening and just slowly faded away into what is now known as the National Guard and the XXXXXX (state) Reserves. State Governments feared the militias and were all too eager to see them fall totally under state control. The phrase a well regulated was twisted into meaning the state could regulate everything about the militia. Now comes the Federal Government with loads of tax monies collected and basically buys out the states. So now we have what once was a militia turned into so many federal regulations that there is a standing army built to do the will of the Federal Government.

I see no way to get back to the point the framers intent of a well regulated militia. If you even tried the Government of not only the state but the federal as well would lable you a nut case and attack in force before you could get out of hand. Waco, Texas comes to mind. Once in a while you will hear about some little group getting busted by the feds for weapons or being too radical. This usually happens when they start really getting their message out and people start to listen. Then the only side of the story you get to hear is the one the feds put out to the media.
 

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At the beginning of the Revolution, George Washington had a huge problem with the men under his command. The group from Massachussetts couldn't shoot accurately but were disciplined. The bunch from Pennslyvania could shoot accurately but were undisciplined and were drunk most of the time (my ancestors :righton: ). Well regulated was to require each of us be properly trained in firearms and other aspects of solidiering.
 

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In the parlance of the day, well-regulated = properly trained, equipped, and organized.

This comes from the same derivation whereby properly trained troops are called "regulars" (since the are "well-regulated" by their governments) while hastily fielded troops from the citizenry are often known as "irregulars" or "irregular troops." Since, under the system originally envisioned by the Founders, there would be no standing army of "regular" troops during peacetime, the militia would need to be "well-regulated" so that these these technically "irregular" troops could have the training, equipment, organization, and numbers to match any invading army.

Switzerland has a similar system in place today, and remained unmolested during two world wars. :righton:
 

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well-regulated = well functioning

Think of your digestive system. Are you feeling irregular? Heard that term in commercials?
 

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MrMorden said:
In the parlance of the day, well-regulated = properly trained, equipped, and organized.

This comes from the same derivation whereby properly trained troops are called "regulars" (since the are "well-regulated" by their governments) while hastily fielded troops from the citizenry are often known as "irregulars" or "irregular troops." Since, under the system originally envisioned by the Founders, there would be no standing army of "regular" troops during peacetime, the militia would need to be "well-regulated" so that these these technically "irregular" troops could have the training, equipment, organization, and numbers to match any invading army.

Switzerland has a similar system in place today, and remained unmolested during two world wars. :righton:
This Emphatically. :righton: :righton: :righton:
 
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