What about an auction ????

Discussion in 'Places Off-Limits' started by glocked_n_loaded, Apr 19, 2006.

  1. glocked_n_loaded

    glocked_n_loaded New Member

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    is an auction a public gathering????? i was thinking about going to the columbus metro public auction this weekend and was wondering if this would be off limits??????? free admission and all there for one reason would lead me to believe it may be so , but how is this different from any other store where people gather to buy stuff?????
     
  2. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    "public" better not be in a publicly owned or operated building.

    I don't know if an auction would be a pg or not. There are reasons it could be (possibly a large number of people gathered for an event/function), and reasons it might not be (open to the public held at various times).

    I am going with the law is too vague on this one.
     

  3. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I posted the following on November 14, 2005, in the "Public Gathering, List of Places Off Limits" thread, which is the third "sticky" in this forum:

    Farmer was also the main case relied upon in the auto auction case. Jordan v. State, 166 Ga. App. 417 (1983). In this case, the defendant was convicted based upon a crowd that gathered around him in the parking lot. From my reading, it appears the crowd gathered because of a shooting, and the defendant waited there under orders from the police!

    See also Farmer v. State, 112 Ga.App. 438, 145 S.E.2d 594 (1965) wherein appellant's conviction was affirmed. He carried a shotgun in his car and parked it on the V.F.W. Club grounds. A fight began in the parking lot and appellant returned to his car, got the shotgun, loaded it and stood the attackers off. The evidence here shows that Jordan possessed a loaded weapon on the auction grounds and that many people were present in the parking lot when it was removed from his person.


    Many people were present? :?

    Unless you think I am exaggerating the facts, the case says, "The deputy told them to remain where they were while he went to try to locate the man who had been running. When he returned, the couple had crossed the road and were standing beside appellant's pickup truck in the auction's parking lot."
     
  4. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    When was the affirmative defense added to the public gathering law?

    Perhaps that ruling was the reason affirmative defense was added.
     
  5. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Nope. If you are referring to the defense of notifying security - that came about because of all the arrests where people found a gun after they got past the airport security, realized they had a gun, and promptly did what they thought was the right thing - notify the nearest police officer or security person.

    They were rewarded with jail time! :shock:

    Neal Boortz got people to donate meals, hotel, airfare, and such items for a woman that spent here honeymoon weekend in jail before she could raise bail here in Atlanta for just such an occurrence. Now there is a fond memory for you! Anyway, they got another trip to Atlanta . . .
     
  6. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    Oh yeah, I remember that from the news.

    Doesn't that mean that if the same thing happens (parking lot auto auction case) and the cop knows you have a firearm and tells you to stay put, that the affirmative defense would now cover that.
     
  7. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, Jordan did not bring the firearm to the attention of the police officer. In fact, the officer found it during a search. Although the case does not say so, I believe that Jordan was probably hiding the firearm for the woman who had taken some shots . . . ?

    Who knows . . .

    But, anyway, this would not have fit the affirmative defense language.
     
  8. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Auction

    Yeah, it seems that under our broadly-worded "public gatherings" law, an auction would be included under the phrase. It's not like a shopping mall or a McDonald's where the same kind of business may be transacted all day long, several days a week, with anybody who wanders onto the property with a few bucks. Auctions are only held infrequently, and they are scheduled well in advance, and people gather at specific places at a specific time to interact with each other there.

    Which brings up another point-- unlike just buying a hamburger where you interact only with the high school kid behind the counter in a polyester uniform, and unlike going to a movie where you only interact with the young person in the box office and do not interact at all with your fellow patrons, at AUCTIONS you are expected to interact, though indirectly, with all the other bidders on the things you bid on. You're in a bidding war with them. That extra element of interaction would make it easier for a court to hold (actually, to uphold a jury's finding on this factual question) that the place you went with your gun was a "public gathering" instead of just a place that was accessible to the public where many customers happened to be at the same time you were there.

    But this is just a guess, and I sincerely hope that our stupid Public Gatherings law is revised before a test case makes it into the appellae court system. Licensed pistol permit holders should not be banned from carrying at all public gatherings, though maybe SOME gatherings and some buildings could properly be made off-limits.
     
  9. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Auction


    Hmmm . . . extra bidding leverage?



    :shoot:
     
  10. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Gunsmoker, would you not agree that an auction probably even meets the test of "gathered for a particular function" as set forth in State v. Burns (the McDonald's case) which is the best case on concealed carry and the only public gathering case to involve a person with a firearms license.
     
  11. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    What sucks is that you can make an argument either way.

    How often is regular, 9-5 Mon - Fri? What about car auctions held every Mon and Wed?

    And the bidding, would a silent auction be off-limits since you don't know who you are bidding against?

    Frankly the only way to really know the answer is after the fact/act. Everything else is just a guess and if you guess wrong you could lose your GFL for several years.

    Have I ever mentioned that I really do not like this law? :x
     
  12. glocked_n_loaded

    glocked_n_loaded New Member

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    i'm with you gunstar.... i too really dont like this law... the wording leaves too much room for guessing..... i WANT to stay legal, but with this law i am not always sure.... when in doubt i leave it in the car.
     
  13. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    When in doubt, I am just discrete! :wink:


    When I am confident I am legal, I often open carry . . .
     
  14. ICP_Juggalo

    ICP_Juggalo Professional Troll

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    In playing with my new lexis nexis software, I came across court cases. I found yet one more case involving prosecuting a person for carrying to a public gathering while in possession of a GFL. His judgement was affirmed :( but it is interesting reading nonetheless.

    SOCKWELL v. THE STATE.
    COURT OF APPEALS OF GEORGIA
    27 Ga App 57627 Ga. App. 576; 109 SE 531109 S.E. 531; 1921 Ga App LEXIS 2771921 Ga. App. LEXIS 277
    12604.
    November 16, 1921, Decided


    A license to carry a pistol is no defense to one charged with carrying a pistol to a place of public worship (Penal Code of 1910, § 348).
    Counsel King & Johnson, for plaintiff in error.
    A. M. Brand, solicitor-general, contra.
    Judges: Bloodworth, J. Broyles, C. J., and Luke, J., concur.
    Opinion
    Opinion by: BLOODWORTH
    {27 Ga. App. 576} {109 S.E. 531} BLOODWORTH, J. The indictment in this case charged that the defendant "did carry about his person a certain pistol to and while at Salem Camp Ground, a place of public worship, while the people were then and there assembled for the purpose of engaging in religious services." The allegations in the indictment were supported by the uncontradicted evidence of several witnesses, and the defendant himself admitted that he had the pistol at the time and place alleged. However, he insisted that he violated no law, because he had a license which authorized him to carry the pistol. This contention is not sound. Prior to the passage of the act of 1910 (Ga. L. 1910, p. 134, Park's Penal Code, § 348 (a) et seq.) a person violated no law who carried a pistol openly and fully exposed to view and did not carry it to any of the places to which carrying it was prohibited by law. The effect of the act of 1910 was to make it unlawful for any person to have or carry about his person a pistol, whether it is concealed or not, unless a license has been procured as provided for by that act. Under the express provisions of that act it does not "alter, affect, or amend any laws . of force in this State relative to the carrying concealed weapons on or about one's person." Hence, the issuance of a license to a person to carry a pistol would not avail him as a defense should he be prosecuted for carrying the pistol concealed or carrying it to a place of public worship. This being true, the judge did not err in withholding from the jury "a pistol toter's license" issued to the defendant, nor in charging the jury that "the fact that a man may have a license for the carrying of a pistol does not permit him, under the license, to carry it to the place described in this bill of indictment."
    Judgment affirmed. Broyles, C. J., and Luke, J., concur.
     
  15. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, but that case is an easy call once you throw the Constitution in the trash (which they did sixteen years before this case came up on appeal). He had a license, but he carried into a place that the statute specifically lists as being off limits. Therefore, the license is no defense.


    I wonder, though, whether he knew they were conducting a religious service? I mean, he did not carry it into a white clapboard church building. He carried into a campground. The case does not tell us whether he realized only too late or if he came there to make trouble or if he came there to worship peacefully and just thought the license exempted him.
     
  16. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Also, did you notice that this case was in 1921, the judges recognize that the license is for carry open or concealed, and yet Attorney General Mike Bowers (our previous Attorney General) still thought that the license, more than 6 decades later, did not permit concealed carry?

    :roll:
     
  17. asbrand

    asbrand Active Member

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    Just curious...

    Wouldn't a gunshow, by definition, be a "public gathering" then? :shock:

    Man, lookit all those illegal guns...at the gunshow... 8)
     
  18. ICP_Juggalo

    ICP_Juggalo Professional Troll

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    That was pretty much the same premise for Wynne Vs. The State (1905). The defendant had left his shotgun for hunting rabbits at a friends house the previous night. On the day of the 4th of July public BBQ he went back to his friend's house to get his shotgun, He claims that he had no idea that the public BBQ was being held some 40 - 50 yards away from his friends house. When he got to his friends house to get his shotgun to go rabbit hunting, a riot had broken out at the public BBQ 50 yards away from the house. The defendant grabbed his shotgun and started walking towards the crowd where the riot and public gathering were taking place. It was there that he was busted for carrying a deadly weapon to a public gathering. Later in court he contested that he was not attending the public gathering and that he had no part and didn't want any part in the BBQ or the riot. He claims he was just getting his shotgun from his friend's house that he "accidently" left there the previous night. It just happened the direction he was walking in to get on his way home was in the direction of the public BBQ/riot.
     
  19. ICP_Juggalo

    ICP_Juggalo Professional Troll

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    To answer your question asbrand, yes in my humble opinion a gun show is a public gathering because it is an organized event/function that the public gathers for will gather for and most of the time gun shows take place in a publicly owned building of sorts like a civic center.

    Every gun show I have been too has had a warning posted that a person bringing a loaded a firearm into the gun show can be prosecuted for carrying deadly weapon to a public gathering. You also got to take into consideration that there is a LEO at the entrance to the gun show checking such things and one could plea the affirmative defense clause in the law;

    (d) It is an affirmative defense to a violation of this Code section if a person notifies a law enforcement officer or other person employed to provide security for a public gathering of the presence of such item as soon as possible after learning of its presence and surrenders or secures such item as directed by the law enforcement officer or other person employed to provide security for a public gathering.