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Discussion Starter #1
From VCDL Alert:

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4. Disturbing video of legally-armed citizen harrassed in Norfolk
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http://tinyurl.com/297aao

This video is from the second police cruiser to respond to a "man with a gun" call in Norfolk. A private security guard saw the citizen and called the police. There is not much any of us can do to avoid being checked out by the police. The lessons are: 1) carry a recording device; 2) FOIA the police radio traffic and police car video/audio tapes; 3) don't resist -- but make your claims of innocence so the officer, his recording device, and bystanders are aware of it.

Dan Moore, the citizen involved, writes:

Link to OpenCarry.org Post

This vid is from LEO2's dashcam. LEO1's dashcam only caught him coming outside his car with gun in hand, then pointing it at me with no audio.

On 6/29/07 approx 5:22pm, I was picking up a friend in downtown Norfolk. At the time, I didn't have A/C and it was 110 outside, so I stood outside my car in order to remain cool. What happened next I could expect, however what the NPD did, I could not.

They had me at gunpoint, they placed handcuffs on me, illegally searched me, illegally detained, and when it was all said and done, no apology, just if you come out here, you will get this kind of "attention".

For those of you unfamiliar with police procedure, it is unlawful for a law enforcement officer to detain/search you without probable cause - Terry vs Ohio.

Please ask any questions about the dialogue.

I'm going to take this to a lawyer, but I would like to hear from you guys, what I should do next.

Thanks so much for the support!!!

Dan
 

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In the description under the video, he states that under Terry v. Ohio for the police to stop/search without probable cause. That is incorrect. The standard for a Terry stop is reasonable articulable suspicion.
 

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This is Virginia. It is not illegal to carry openly permit or not. What was their reasonable articulable suspicion then. Does the guy bare a close resemblance to a known felon or something. All I heard was "I'm just doing my job." That job is limited by the laws of the state and applicable federal provisions.
 

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viper32cm said:
This is Virginia. It is not illegal to carry openly permit or not. What was their reasonable articulable suspicion then. Does the guy bare a close resemblance to a known felon or something. All I heard was "I'm just doing my job." That job is limited by the laws of the state and applicable federal provisions.
I didn't say that RAS existed in this case. I simply pointed out that the individual incorrect in the legal standard set by Terry.
 

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Great thing here is that legacy knows this is an unlawful stop since there is no RAS. What I have always wondered is how many other LEOs in GA know this. Because if APD did this to me, which they would likely since I live in such a glorious part of town, I would definitely sue their ass.
 

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And how about a response of "well, your job is not to violate my constitutional rights"

:)
 

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I was watching this video last night when the police knocked on my door, one of my neighbors called the police to me for open carry last night. Guess he didn't see the badge though.
 

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legacy38 said:
I didn't say that RAS existed in this case. I simply pointed out that the individual incorrect in the legal standard set by Terry.
I know, I was venting :D
 

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Firearmz said:
I was watching this video last night when the police knocked on my door, one of my neighbors called the police to me for open carry last night. Guess he didn't see the badge though.
I was thinking about a situation like that just yesterday. What happened, if you don't mind me asking?
 

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legacy38 said:
In the description under the video, he states that under Terry v. Ohio for the police to stop/search without probable cause. That is incorrect. The standard for a Terry stop is reasonable articulable suspicion.
Very good point Legacy.

What I want to ask these cops is how they feel about Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375, 146 L.Ed.2d 254 (2000).
 

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Discussion Starter #11
legacy38 said:
viper32cm said:
This is Virginia. It is not illegal to carry openly permit or not. What was their reasonable articulable suspicion then. Does the guy bare a close resemblance to a known felon or something. All I heard was "I'm just doing my job." That job is limited by the laws of the state and applicable federal provisions.
I didn't say that RAS existed in this case. I simply pointed out that the individual incorrect in the legal standard set by Terry.
The suspicion in this case was "armed robbery," if I recall correctly. Being black with a gun standing outside a bank waiting for the friend who works there to get off so that you can provide a requested ride home . . .

I think this is the same case.
 

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Malum Prohibitum said:
The suspicion in this case was "armed robbery," if I recall correctly. Being black with a gun standing outside a bank waiting for the friend who works there to get off so that you can provide a requested ride home . . .

I think this is the same case.
So what you are saying is, this is more about racism than carrying a gun. It's a case of PWB (Packing While Black) ?

BTW, If I am robbing a bank I am not gonna have a visible gun in holster and standing around outside casually waiting.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Well, this one particular case may have been. Hard to tell, but it did not look like he was robbing the bank across the street to me. Or about to.

Northern Virginia police agencies are having a problem with this open cary thing, even though there is no law against it and no license requirement. They arrested a VCDL member named Chet, then dropped the charges. They threatened to arrest his wife for videotaping it (so she stopped).

Chet is white.

He also carries an Hk, and any good police officer would know that criminals do not carry Hk.

So, to answer your question, I am not 100% sure it was about race, but I am suspicious that the officer would not have been holding this man at gunpoint were he white.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Is the Second Amendment still a right if police officers may point a gun at you merely for carrying a firearm?

Is it still a right so long as they promptly send you on your way after the encounter (breathing threats about arresting you, though)?

"Hey, he checked out, so we unhandcuffed him and let him go. We support the right to bear arms."
:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Malum Prohibitum said:
Hard to tell, but it did not look like he was robbing the bank across the street to me. Or about to.
Well, I may be exaggerating how close he was to the bank. From OpenCarry.Org discussion forums:

LEO, bear in mind that you don't live anywhere near here, so you aren't familiar with where this all occured. First of all, saying that Danbus was "in front of the bank" is an incredible stretch of the English language. Danbus was on the sidewalk of a small traffic circle. Said traffic circle is about 200-300 feet from the building in which the bank resides. The bank isn't even on the first floor of that building. Second, there is a world of difference between an officer simply making contact with someone doing nothing illegal, and pointing your gun at his head with little to no discussion prior to that.

The simple fact is that I can carry a gun INSIDE a bank, and it's not against the law (unless they tell me to leave that is). Danbus did nothing in that situation to justify having a gun pointed at him and then be placed in cuffs. It's even less excusable for the officers to tell him at the end that they'll do the exact same thing to him if they saw him open carrying again, knowing that he wasn't breaking any laws. There are a number of ways they could have handled this that wouldn't have caused so much outrage, and they didn't choose any of them. They could have just sat back and kept an eye on him. They could have walked up and struck up a conversation with him. Instead, they went straight to holding him at gunpoint.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
On the video, the Danbus kept asking, “Am I being detained?†while he was handcuffed!

:lol:

And then the police officer kept asking, “Are you a lawyer?â€

I wonder what would have happened if the answer to the cop was "Yes, I am"?
 

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Malum Prohibitum said:
And then the police officer kept asking, “Are you a lawyer?â€

I wonder what would have happened if the answer to the cop was "Yes, I am"?
 

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Malum Prohibitum said:
Northern Virginia police agencies are having a problem with this open cary thing, even though there is no law against it and no license requirement. They arrested a VCDL member named Chet, then dropped the charges. They threatened to arrest his wife for videotaping it (so she stopped).

Chet is white.

He also carries an Hk, and any good police officer would know that criminals do not carry Hk.

So, to answer your question, I am not 100% sure it was about race, but I am suspicious that the officer would not have been holding this man at gunpoint were he white.
Just a correction, Chet was arrested in Norfolk as well which is in the same are where Dan was arrested.

The officers in NoVa (Northern Virginia) however are having similar problems and have harrassed people on more than one occassion. The one that stands out in my mind is the female officer who makes the guy leave a Barnes and Noble while the manager is standing there telling him he is welcome there.
 
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