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Magazine spotlights UK shootings

It illustrates a larger theme that, in spite of bowing to just about every infringement the gun control crowd can think up, their hypothesis fails in every laboratory where the experiment has been conducted. Guns exist. To try to limit their possession to government is not only an impossible dream, but where it's been tried it invariably produces nightmares.

You can access a digital edition of the complete magazine by clicking on the flash graphic of the cover in the upper right of the GUNS main page (and you can sign up for a free digital subscription).
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-n ... -shootings

The Guns and Ammo Article:

Twelve people have been killed and another 25 wounded after a gunman drove across Cumbria shooting victims in several different locations, before taking his own life,†the UK’s Guardian reported.

“Police said they were investigating 30 separate crime scenes after taxi driver Derrick Bird… embarked upon an apparently random shooting spree....â€

Police could do nothing but follow desperate calls for help during a 3-hour manhunt that only ended when the killer took his own life. None of the victims were able to defend themselves, because the government there does not allow subjects to carry firearms for self-defense....

“Cumbria saw gun crime virtually double in 2009….â€
If you sign up for the free digital subscription like I did, here is the article: http://www.gunsmagazine.com/GUNSRights.html

Its a very good read and the subscription is very easy to do. Even missed my address by one number. :lol:

More proof that gun control does not work. Its completely futile. You can infringe on our rights all that you want and you will not stop shootings, murders, or even mass murders. Its impossible. If someone wants to do something like this, gun control will not stop them.

Now how do we convince the antis or just the general public of this? That's the question. However, we know some people will always refuse to listen to logic and facts.
 

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Interesting -- definitely speaks to the old saying that "If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them."

I got into a pretty good debate with a co-worker who is from another country (in Europe) -- she was amazed at how we Americans are so obsessed with guns. Her point was an interesting one: in her home country, you don't have to worry about things. You can fall asleep at a bus-stop and wake up to find your belongings still right there next to you. A woman can go jogging in at night along the streets and not worry about being attacked. Wasn't really sure what to say to that except that here in America there are a lot of desperate people who will do whatever they feel they must to get what they need, even at the expense of your life.

In an ideal world of peaceful people and governments that don't want to take our freedoms away, we wouldn't need to arm ourselves. But we can't ignore the 800lb gorilla in the room: there's no shortage of BG's out there, and every day you hear victims (or unfortunately their surviving families) say, "I never thought it would happen to me." Personally, I think we have too many laws that protect the perps -- what happened to creating a strong deterrent against crime? If a mugger thought there was greater than a 1% chance the person he was about to hold up would be pulling a gun to justifiably defend himself, I'm willing to bet he'd find applying for a job has better chances of getting him money without getting shot.

We are livestock surrounded by wolves -- I'd rather have a gun than more shepherds.
 

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qinvictus said:
I got into a pretty good debate with a co-worker who is from another country (in Europe) -- she was amazed at how we Americans are so obsessed with guns. Her point was an interesting one: in her home country, you don't have to worry about things. You can fall asleep at a bus-stop and wake up to find your belongings still right there next to you. A woman can go jogging in at night along the streets and not worry about being attacked.
Tell her that she must of lived in a very good area. There are some of them in America too where citizens don't usually have worries over crime.

But in the end, crime happens everywhere. Yes even in Europe. It's unpredictable and at times, very random.
 

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qinvictus said:
I got into a pretty good debate with a co-worker who is from another country (in Europe) -- she was amazed at how we Americans are so obsessed with guns. Her point was an interesting one: in her home country, you don't have to worry about things. You can fall asleep at a bus-stop and wake up to find your belongings still right there next to you. A woman can go jogging in at night along the streets and not worry about being attacked. Wasn't really sure what to say to that except that here in America there are a lot of desperate people who will do whatever they feel they must to get what they need, even at the expense of your life.
I fail to see her point. Why is it so safe where she's from?
 

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According to her, it's safer because people don't carry guns there (and because the gov has made it so expensive and painful to go about the process of getting a permit -- sounds like Chicago?). My argument against that was she's just lucky she hasn't been a victim of some nut-job. I almost popped a blood vessel when she told me she still jogs at night by herself -- I suppose being a marathon runner is a good self-defense if you're being chased by a BG ;). Though, it seems rather naive to think that a criminal is going to say to himself, "ya know, I really want to go mug someone right now, but I don't have a permit to take this gun out of my house, so I guess I'll watch Jeopardy instead."

Like the OP (and the article) said, gun control only affects the law-abiding citizen. I think a lot of the fear of gun-owners stems from either a lack of understanding about what a gun really is and how to use it, or they just haven't been exposed to anyone being a victim of a crime before and all they hear are the left-wing exaggerations. If you and everyone you know can go through life without being robbed, or threatened in some way, you're pretty darn lucky.

For some reason it seems that the anti-gun folks think that a normal, sane person becomes an about-to-go-postal maniac if they get a gun in their hands. I can remember growing up that my mother was adamantly opposed to my father purchasing a gun to be kept in the house -- she made him keep it in the basement. Then he took her to a few lessons, and now she owns 2 handguns herself, keeps a shotgun under the bed, and just got her weapons permit. In my opinion, education about gun-safety and responsible gun ownership are the keys to helping the public be more comfortable with them in our society -- even if those individuals don't want to own one themselves.

It's always refreshing to read through the non-encounter posts on this forum and see that people have come up to those OCing and told them they feel safer with them around. Few and far between, unfortunately, but at least some people get it.
 

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qinvictus said:
According to her, it's safer because people don't carry guns there (and because the gov has made it so expensive and painful to go about the process of getting a permit -- sounds like Chicago?). My argument against that was she's just lucky she hasn't been a victim of some nut-job. I almost popped a blood vessel when she told me she still jogs at night by herself -- I suppose being a marathon runner is a good self-defense if you're being chased by a BG ;). Though, it seems rather naive to think that a criminal is going to say to himself, "ya know, I really want to go mug someone right now, but I don't have a permit to take this gun out of my house, so I guess I'll watch Jeopardy instead."
I guess a mugger might say, "I was going to go out and mug someone with this knife since almost no one can defend themselves with a gun. But since I can't obtain a gun legally, I'll just put the knife back in the drawer and give up crime." No wait....that doesn't make any sense. :?

What is the name of this crime free country? I may want to visit.
 

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Ironically, Austria. Wonder if gun laws would've prevented the assassination of Ferdinand <sarcasm>.
 

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qinvictus said:
Ironically, Austria. Wonder if gun laws would've prevented the assassination of Ferdinand <sarcasm>.
He was killed in Sarajevo, which is in present day Bosnia.
 

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qinvictus said:
I almost popped a blood vessel when she told me she still jogs at night by herself -- I suppose being a marathon runner is a good self-defense if you're being chased by a BG ;).
According to UNICRI (United Nations Interregional Crime and Justice Research Institute) 2002, Austria was #2 in the world in per capita rape:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims
 

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GAGunOwner said:
He was killed in Sarajevo, which is in present day Bosnia.
Though at the time Bosnia was under the control of the Austro-Hungarian empire, if I'm not mistaken. Been many a year since I read the history books though :).

I guess at the end of the day it depends on your perspective. If you're not exposed to violence, your opinion might be that anyone with weapons is potentially violent. On the other hand, if you're concerned with someday potentially being a victim, you might be more prone to err on the side of caution and carry a piece. As Target pointed out in his last reply, people are too often blissfully ignorant of the threat around them -- I guess I'm just a terrible person for not inherently trusting everyone, but I'd rather not be a statistic :). At least we have that choice -- I'd hate to see an attempt made to disarm us under the guise of "protecting the people from each other."

How many fewer people would've died in Cumbria if someone along the way had been able to defend himself. Sad really.
 

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qinvictus said:
Ironically, Austria. Wonder if gun laws would've prevented the assassination of Ferdinand <sarcasm>.
Ah. Yes. Apparently she hasn't traveled around Europe very much. Her neck of the woods is akin to Wyoming--not representative of where it's safe for a woman to jog, leave a purse on a chair, etcetera. Send her to Madrid, London, Rome or...then let's get a report of how safe she feels Europe to be.
 

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My problem is whenever I get into one of these discussions and it turns to crime statistics, or safety, I shut down. The issue is philisophical for me. I do not care if the violent crime rate rose by 10% and it could be proven that it was because more people were armed, I would still argue for it on the basis of personal freedom.
 

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dsklajic said:
My problem is whenever I get into one of these discussions and it turns to crime statistics, or safety, I shut down. The issue is philisophical for me. I do not care if the violent crime rate rose by 10% and it could be proven that it was because more people were armed, I would still argue for it on the basis of personal freedom.
Agreed, that is really the only argument that we should be having. The personal freedom argument. But unfortunately, there are a bunch of fascist anti-gun grabbers out there, and corrupt politicians that choose to make up their own beliefs about the 2nd amendment, adding things to it that aren't on paper. After all, what is the most important thing about the 2nd amendment?

THE PERIOD! "shall not be infringed... PERIOD!" It doesn't say, shall not be infringed, accept when you're around little johnny at school... it doesn't say shall not be infringed, accept when you're in a government building... it doesn't say shall not be infringed... accept when you're in a "sensitive area." It says "shall not be infringed.... PERIOD!."

Because there are a bunch of gun-grabbing anti gun fascist politicians out there, we have to end up arguing well beyond the personal freedom argument, which is sad, because the freedom argument is really the only argument that we need. We've been compromised and put into such a box, that we have to show actually proof that more guns equals less crime. Which to me, is just more icing on the freedom cake. Even if it didn't, I still would err on freedom side.

Its just more proof of what the antis actually are. They are anti-freedom and really anti-Constitution, because the second amendment is in there.

Ohh, but take those same anti-gun people and start burning a Koran, and all the sudden you're a racist, hateful, dumb-butt hill billy that can't articulate two words together, and should be in jail for daring to use your first amendment rights. If you own guns and believe in bearing them, they believe that the Patriot Act did its job and you should be wiretapped without a warrant to make sure that you're not going to do anything crazy... because you know you're a crazy right-wing nut job, and its ok to infringe on my 4th amendment rights, but do that to a liberal and its wrong. That is why they are anti-Constitutional. Especially when the unconstitutional laws that they love are used against "the scary people." Just don't use those same laws against them. Their is hypocrisy on both sides, but I have to say that the anti-gun crowd are some of the worst.
 
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