Trumps executive orders

Discussion in 'Off-topic' started by atlsrt44, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Changing direction a little, assume for the sake of argument that it is not constitutional for the president to order the IRS not to collect taxes (temporarily) that Congress has imposed, who would have standing to sue? In order to sue, you have to be injured. Who is injured if a tax is not collected? Perhaps another taxpayer could complain that he is going to have to pay more taxes to make up for it, but that seems conjectural unless he actually does have to pay more taxes.
     
  2. 45_Fan

    45_Fan Well-Known Member

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    The result of Worcester v. Georgia comes to mind...even if the executive branch could be sued for not enforcing the law for collecting payroll taxes.
     

  3. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Can you elaborate? I don't see any relationship at all, but maybe there's something in that opinion you have in mind.
     
  4. OWM

    OWM Well-Known Member

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  5. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Yeah, but at least in the case of ending DACA, there were plenty of people being harmed by its termination. So they had standing to sue. Think about when DACA was created. Who was harmed by letting people stay?
     
  6. OWM

    OWM Well-Known Member

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    Excellent advice, but left wing types tend not to let historical facts get in the way of their agenda and outright ignorance. History and its lessons are kryptonite to the progressive agenda. That's why you have uneducated folks graduating from schools. I would say not all but a very large number of 2nd Amendment supporters are well versed in the origins and birth of the 2nd while most of those who oppose it don't have a clue.
     
    StarJack likes this.
  7. OWM

    OWM Well-Known Member

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    Just as who is harmed by providing $400.00 more to the unemployment check, no payroll taxes, not being kicked out of your house, relief on student loan payments.
     
  8. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    That's my point. I don't know who could have sued then (and I'm not aware that anyone did), and I don't know who could sue now.
     
  9. OWM

    OWM Well-Known Member

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  10. Bkite

    Bkite PawPaw x 3

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    Taxpayers are harmed.
    Those being harmed by ending the unConstitutional DACA program are illegals and therefore should not be considered over the Americans being harmed by their continued presence.
     
  11. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    It's been well established that a taxpayer cannot sue because of how money is being spent.
     
  12. 45_Fan

    45_Fan Well-Known Member

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    My thinking was if the legislative branch were to, hypothetically, appeal to the judicial branch that the nation’s budget and financial security were a risk due to the executive branch’s decision to stop collecting payroll taxes in some cases or, if through numerical contortions, the legislative branch were to claim the executive branch’s own numerical contortions violated the separation of powers via the appropriations clause then some degree of the executive branch could be brought before a court. Yes, I’m aware of how slim that is, but my point was more to say that even if it went to the Supreme Court and a ruling then fell against the executive branch, a response of “John Roberts has made his decision; now let him enforce it!” could be very likely.
     
  13. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    How about a couple of million US Citizen construction workers that saw their wages stagnate for well over 30 years. I myself started in the construction industry in 1969 and my starting wage as a part time knowing nothing about it after school was $10 per hour. That as I said was 1969. In 2020 the starting wages are around $8 per hour due totally to illegal border crashing. Anyone need repairs done to their house? It will be almost exclusively done by illegal border crossing thieves that stole the good paying job from a US Citizen. Construction is not the only industry harmed by the criminals that invaded and have been allowed to stay. So you can sit there on your high priced attorney wages and ask the stupid as to who was harmed? How about all the US Citizens you don't think you should have to pay a good wage for the work but demand a good wage for yourself. I don't know what the average salary was for lawyers in 1969 but I would bet it was no where near what it is today. However if the illegals would have come in and taken over the law industry the way they did the construction industry it would still be the same or less that it was in 1969. think about it in those terms. What if the illegals had driven down the price a lawyer could charge for their services the same as other industries.
     
  14. StarJack

    StarJack Well Aged Member

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    Americans that would have otherwise had that seat in the college classroom? Or the American who may have otherwise had the job the illegal alien wound up with?
     
  15. 45_Fan

    45_Fan Well-Known Member

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    So many holes....
    First, who do I sue because I don’t make $4M/yr simply because I think I ought to? The question is inherently absurd!
    Second, your numbers are bunk. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472061.htm
    Third, construction materials and techniques have advanced significantly since 1969 to meet demands for reduced labor costs. In the 50s and 60s, material costs were far more than labor costs. Labor costs have gotten more expensive over time which is why you see more prefab elements and almost zero artisan work in residential construction today. The new materials and methods have displaced the demand for specialized labor with unskilled labor. Comparing a granite mason setting footings to a guy running a concrete vibrator in formwork is the tip of the iceberg in cost differences!
     
  16. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Yeah, those come to mind, if they could have proved their case. But I am not aware that anyone did sue. I think it would have been a tough case.
     
  17. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    The question I was answering was who was harmed by allowing them to stay. Not who had standing now to sue. I could not even tell you who to sue much less had standing. The builders who hired the illegals at $8 per hour instead of the Citizens who deserved their wages to increase instead of declining? How and why? The simple fact is the answer to the question as to who was harmed is millions of American Citizens have been harmed for many years by illegals coming in and working on the cheap to get paid without paying taxes. Attending and over crowding our schools. Going to college as instate residents harming other students that because they are not from that state either they have to pay a higher out of state rate for tuition. Anyone who thinks illegal border crashing does not harm the US Citizens just look at the illegals who have taken over the landscape business and the lawn care industries. Those at one time were very well paying jobs. A US Citizen could even afford to buy his/her own house on the wages they could earn. Now you have illegals with 6, 8 10 of them riding in one truck to get to the job and paying rent together on one apartment driving the wages down so far a US Citizen no longer can afford to take it on because they do not want to live bunched up the way the illegals will. Maybe you get the idea of how and who has been harmed with just a couple of examples. There are far too may other industries where US Citizens have been driven out by cheap illegal labor to mention in a post on a forum. End DACA and deport them. They will be coming after the lawyers jobs next.
     
  18. GM404

    GM404 Well-Known Member

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    I can only imagine what these posts would have looked like if Obama had signed the EO's. And don't confuse someone's support of the 2A with a LACK of support for the current POTUS as they aren't mutually exclusive.
     
  19. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Somehow this thread moved from who has standing to sue over the EOs, to who had standing to sue over DACA, to who's ox has been gored by DACA beneficiaries and, apparently, lawyers. But as long as you're there, why are you so sure that DACA beneficiaries are construction workers and not lawyers? I only know of one DACA beneficiary personally, and she is in graduate school working on her PhD in neurosciences. It's reasonable to assume she could have gone to law school instead of graduate school, and would end up driving down the price lawyers can charge instead of driving down the price that neuroscientists can charge, but it's just as reasonable to assume that plenty of DACA beneficiaries already are doing so or have done so. There's always been a glut of lawyers, at least as long as I have known anything about it. But if you think being a lawyer is the gravy train and DACA kids are going to take all the good lawyer jobs, you could really throw a wrench into the works by going to law school yourself and taking one of their seats.
     
  20. Deepocean

    Deepocean Member

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    Not sure where you made $10.00/hr "starting out in construction in 1969" but I well remember when I started out in 1976 I made $2.30/hr.
    Part of the wage stagnation issue in Construction is that the top performers move through the ranks fairly quickly, helper, apprentice, journeyman, pm, owner, etc.
    You don't see many 50yo plumber's helpers.
    Wage stagnation is a problem but a decent tradesman can easily make $75-$100K a year in an urban area. That being said, the majority of younger people have no interest in building anything with their hands and you can't become a master electrician by watching youtube videos on the couch.
    There's a tremendous shortage of skilled workers, illegals go to where the jobs are. I've worked in the industry for over 40 years, I've never known a case where an illegal "stole a job", or was given any preference over an US citizen.