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This is from http://www.coltcco.com/?p=180#.

I Love The Taste Of Concrete In The Evening

I would tell you all about getting my face mushed up against a wall for not fully concealing my legally carried firearm in public, but right now, I’m just too sad. I mostly got over the angry, now I’m just sad for the future of the nation as a whole, which is worse. Stream of Conciousness to follow.

Honest, if a man carrying a holstered firearm is such a threat to the safety of the people of Knoxville that I will get body-slammed for it, causing me to lose my cart of groceries and scaring the crap out of my girlfriend, just take the carry permits away. Please, don’t get people’s hopes up that if they just jump through enough bureaucratic hoops, they will be able to exercise a recognized and protected right. Not with Peace Officers - no, Law Enforcement Officers on the job.

If the responding officer can’t be bothered to know the law that an open carried or briefly visible firearm is legal with a TN Handgun Carry Permit, and doesn’t care when he finds out that it is, who would risk being slammed to the brick if anyone in a store saw their carry firearm? Why the facade? If they can’t be kept and/or borne in public, what’s the point of making one poor officer handle that sort of danger? Call out the swat team, evacuate the area, go in hard and fast, and take the threat out. I really liked the part where told me that, if I tried to tell him what the law was, he’d find him some probable cause, and a reason for me to sleep in jail.

It’s a hopeless, losing struggle. TV reaches millions more than we do, and not one person in a hundred wants anything more than circuses and bread, the next beer and football game. The American dream used to mean individual success, now it’s just comfort we all want. Why mess with the status quo? Why think, why struggle, why make a decision? Surrender, take the drug, slip away, work, eat, sleep, do it again, and never question the man.

â€"-

Previously unannounced writing hiatus due to my life getting twice as busy as before, too much going on at work.

More updates on other things as updates are update-worthy.

ColtCCO

Edited to Clarify:

I would like to clarify, since I got the question via email, that the officer was not responding to a hysterical “Man with a gun†call (thankfully, or I might have a hole in me right now). He saw me, dressed a a human being in Jeans and a t-shirt, pushing a cart of innocuous groceries next to my girlfriend, when he saw the butt of my holstered pistol, or some portion of it, sticking out from under my shirt. He stopped me just outside the door, asked for ID, and when I told him it was in my pocket(front pocket) ‘wristed’ me, and pushed me into the wall just outside the door.

Then he took my wallet, keys, other keys, pocket knife, other pocket knife. I informed him that I had my permit in order, he responded, very loudly, “It’s a concealed permit! Don’t you know what concealed means?â€

I’m actually really surprised I stayed so calm, but he wasn’t having any of my “Actually, it’s a handgun carry permit, the law does not specify concealed carry†or my “Actually, yes, I do know what the law is, and yes, it is different for you and I under TN law.†He shouted that “I gotta carry concealed off duty, and so do you! Don’t try and tell me.†He got mad because I had two pocketknives, as well. He wasn’t interested in the fact that I knew the law on carry, or that my weapon was safely and legally carried and told me that he’d ‘get me’ for inciting unrest or making a disturbance. In the end, of course, they didn’t, and I went home.

I’m guessing I’ll call internal affairs a bit later.

ColtCCO
 

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It can happen anywhere. Should it? NO, but it can.

A few years back the Atl Red Dog unit beat up an off duty Atl patrol officer. Hey :shattered: I'm a cop :handcuffs: :help: .
:oops: :roll:
 

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I hate that kind of crap. I can't imagine how pissed I'd be in that situation. I think it is a serious issue when the police don't know the law. If I was the chief I'd be firing people. Police going around enforcing laws that don't exist, that's just asking to be sued.

If the cops are breaking the law then why can't we? Oh that's right, we don't wear a badge.
 

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Mobster989 said:
If the cops are breaking the law then why can't we? Oh that's right, we don't wear a badge.
We're not GA probate judges either. ;)
 

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That brings up another question. If you resist arrest but you were proven innocent of the charge you were being arrested for could you still be convicted of resisting arrest?
 

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Mobster989 said:
That brings up another question. If you resist arrest but you were proven innocent of the charge you were being arrested for could you still be convicted of resisting arrest?
If I remember correctly you are allowed to resist an unlawful detention. But you are only allowed to match the level of force being applied.

A legal beagle will be here shortly to give a more technical answer.
 

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Rammstein said:
Mobster989 said:
That brings up another question. If you resist arrest but you were proven innocent of the charge you were being arrested for could you still be convicted of resisting arrest?
If I remember correctly you are allowed to resist an unlawful detention. But you are only allowed to match the level of force being applied.

A legal beagle will be here shortly to give a more technical answer.
What about this situation? The guy wasn't arrested, just muscled around a little.

If a cop grabs you like that, would you be justified in smacking the cop down a bit, whupping him like a red-headed stepchild and just generally kicking the holy dog poop outta him? All in self-defense, of course, and assuming you're capable of doing so... :wink:
 

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That sucks, reminds me of what happened to my old roommate in Buckhead.

He and I would both open carry in our neighborhood Kroger, me with a leather OWB with extra clip, and I never got hassled.
He would carry open with his shoulder holster (much more conspicuous) and got hassled by the off duty cop there. Never got roughed up, but the cop told him not to come in like that again.
 

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Whoever the goof was that typed that up left out the "during criminal activity" aspect out of question 2.
 

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Rammstein said:
Mobster989 said:
That brings up another question. If you resist arrest but you were proven innocent of the charge you were being arrested for could you still be convicted of resisting arrest?
If I remember correctly you are allowed to resist an unlawful detention. But you are only allowed to match the level of force being applied.

A legal beagle will be here shortly to give a more technical answer.
The correct term is you may use the force that is reasonably necessary to escape the arrest. That may be more force than is being applied, depending on the circumstances. It may be something as simple as walking around the officer, like the guy in the movie Office Space, when he walked around his boss, who stepped in his path.

The short answer is that the rules are the same as self defense against anybody else. If walking away is sufficient, then that is all you are permitted to do.

The longer answer, and this is the key, is, "Is the arrest unlawful?" The answer to that question is "probably not." The fact that you think it is unlawful does not make it so, and, if you are wrong, resisting by doing violence or offering to do violence is a felony.

Consider carefully your choice.

In the question posed by Mobster989, the answer is not as simple as Ramm's response might indicate. You can be found "not guilty" of a crime but the arrest may still be lawful. If the officer had probable cause, the arrest is lawful. If he was detaining you on reasonable suspicion of a crime (a reasonable suspicion he can articulate), and you resist the temporary detention, then all he need show is that he had the necessary reasonable suspicion. In that case, you might be found not guilty (you might even be not guilty) but still convicted of felony obstruction because the detention was lawful.

This may or may not be the law in Tennessee. Georgia is definitely in the minority of states on this issue.

This is a difficult issue when an officer tackles you from behind. I am quite sure that when this happens you will have no idea that it is only because the officer wrongfully believes open carry to be illegal. In the case posted, the officer did not voice his opinion "It's a concealed carry license," until after all the tackling business was finished (opinion enforcement or law enforcement?).

What if you resist and it turns out you match exactly the description of the guy who just robbed the bank at the front of the store? Or maybe you don't match but a witness pointed you out to the responding officers.

You just won't know at that point.

I would not recommend resisting an officer who applies force to you when you are not sure why he is doing it.

I am not sure I would resist an officer who applies force to you for carrying, either. After all, is the license a defense or an element of the crime? There are cases stating both.

We have already posted before the ridiculous situation created by the fact that a police officer must technically prove his defense to the charge of carrying without a license.
 

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What about this: If the guy who was tackled from behind could not SEE who did it when it happened... And if he, as I suspect I would do, started beating on the person who tackled them before he realized it was a cop...would that be "resisting arrest"?

I mean...unless there are some strange folks out there, I don't know anyone who literally has eyes in the back of their heads...

Just curious... I know it didn't happen that way in this case, but I could see it happening...
 

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asbrand said:
What about this: If the guy who was tackled from behind could not SEE who did it when it happened... And if he, as I suspect I would do, started beating on the person who tackled them before he realized it was a cop...would that be "resisting arrest"?

I mean...unless there are some strange folks out there, I don't know anyone who literally has eyes in the back of their heads...

Just curious... I know it didn't happen that way in this case, but I could see it happening...
Wouldn't you know you were being chased by cops at this point though? I still can see it happening, I'm just curious.
 

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He posted the official complaint he filed:

http://www.coltcco.com/?p=187

Attn:
Lieutenant Rick Ferguson
Internal Affairs Supervisor
Knoxville Police Department
PO Box 3610
Knoxville, TN 27927

June 23, 2007

Dear Sir,
I am writing to you in your capacity as Supervisor of Internal Affairs of the Knoxville Police Dept. to formally register a complaint against the department and Officer Greene, regarding his actions in the incident on the night of the 21st of June, around 10pm.

Background-
I had been shopping for groceries at the Walker Springs Wal-Mart with my girlfriend, Samantha Williams. I was dressed neatly enough in clean blue Levis and a grey T-shirt, tucked in. My carry firearm, a Colt Concealed Carry Officers Model, was holstered and safed on my right hip in a Brommeland IWB holster. As it was warm that night, I left my jacket in the car, and neglected to un-tuck my shirt over the firearm. We proceeded to shop for groceries for the next 20 minutes. At no time did anyone I encountered in the store raise alarm or cause panic over the sight of my carry firearm. After paying for our groceries, we exited the store and passed Officer Greene in the foyer, who was engaged in conversation with a Wal-Mart Employee. He was located against the wall, to my right. My hands were both on the cart at the time I passed him, my girlfriend was holding my left arm. After I had passed him, I heard Officer Greene exclaim “hey!†and I half-turned to respond to him. He came towards me quickly, and said “You got any ID on you, buddy?†I responded “Yes, I have my carry permit†thinking that he likely wanted to make sure I was licensed to carry a firearm. Both my hands were still on the cart at this time.

He then said “Let me seeâ€, and I then reached for my front pants pocket, when I keep my wallet. At this time, Officer Greene took my wrist in his hand, twisted it back and away, and placed his other hand in my back, forcing me forward into the concrete wall just outside the outer door of the store. This movement caused me to lose my grip on my full cart of groceries, and it began to roll out into the parking lot. As the officer was pushing me forward, I held out my left hand to keep from hitting the wall with full force. When I moved my left hand to protect my face and chest from hitting the wall, Officer Greene shouted “Put ‘em up, keep those hands up there†and pulled my other hand over my head as he pushed my body into the wall. He then kicked and pushed at my ankles with his boots to cause me to stand spread-eagle against the wall. I attempted to inform him that I did have a TN Handgun Carry Permit, and that my mode of carry was legal, to which he yelled “It’s a concealed carry permit, don’t you know what concealed means?†I responded, still calmly, that in TN, “The state code doesn’t specify concealed carry; it’s simply a handgun carry permit.†This statement seemed to make Officer Greene even angrier, and he shouted “Do you think you know more about the law than me? I’ve been a police officer here for 7 years!†I replied “In this case, since we teach the Handgun Carry Permit Course where I work, I’m sure I know this law.†Officer Greene yelled again “I don’t care what you teach, you can’t go around carrying a gun where people can see it. Where do you work?†I informed him that I worked at Coal Creek Armory.

Officer Greene took my wallet, my car keys, both of my pocketknives, and kept his hand on my carry firearm as he called in my driver license to dispatch. In between speaking into his radio, he continued to berate me for carrying my firearm, and emphasized several time that I was incorrect about open carry. I attempted to inform him otherwise, still polite and calm, as I knew I had violated no law. Officer Greene informed me that “My probably cause is that you’re carrying a gun out here, inciting a panic, and that’s all it takes for you to sleep in jail tonight.†I stated, again, that my carry permit was valid, and TN State law permitted handgun carry open or concealed, and that I usually carry concealed. He said that my permit had “better say just that, handgun carry,†but even if it did, he’d just “find some other reason to take me in, disorderly conduct, or inciting a panic. I’ll make some reason.†I was shocked to hear him openly state that he would manufacture probable cause to falsely arrest me, in the hearing of my girlfriend, standing no less than 5 feet away, the Wal-Mart employee he had been speaking with, and the small crowd of bystanders watching.

Officer Greene attempted to draw my firearm to remove it from my holster, but I informed him there were belt snaps on it, and he could just undo them. He did so, and removed firearm and holster from my belt, and then asked me “Is this loaded, one in the chamber? Do you think you can just walk around like that with a loaded gun out in the open?†I confirmed that my defensive firearm was, in fact, loaded and chambered, with the safety on. He asked me “Now, am I gonna find anything else on you? You got anything else I need to know about?†I looked down and saw that he had not removed my Surefire flashlight from my front left pocket, and could feel the tiny CRKT pocketknife in my 5.11 boots pocket. He has missed them while frisking me, and I informed him of their location. He removed them , and then berated me for carrying more than one knife, asking me “what’s your problem, why are you carrying so many knives?†I told him that customers often prefer to buy the knife a salesperson uses, and so I carried one for opening boxes, and two “just in case†to show customers. He registered strong disbelief.

He continued “When I carry off duty, how do you think I carry my gun? It’s concealed, has to be concealed by law. You think the law’s any different for you and me? I’ve been a police officer here in Knoxville for seven years, and I’ve never seen anyone with a permit open carrying.â€
I informed him that concealed carry off duty was a KPD regulation(I know a bit about KPD carry regulations, having dated the sister of a KPD officer for 2 years, and have a few more as customers and personal friends), but that a TN Handgun Carry Permit allowed for open or concealed carry. I stated that I had just left work, picked up my girlfriend, and went straight to Wal-Mart, and was carrying just as I had all day at work.

Officer Greene then told me to have a seat, stood in front of me on the bench, and continued to berate me for carrying a firearm. He handed me my wallet, told me to get my permit out from under my driver license. I did so, and handed it to him. He looked at it, and I stated “Handgun carry permit, doesn’t specify concealed.†He stated that that was “no excuse†for walking around with a gun out in the open, and said that I was lucky he was so gentle, because some of his fellow officers would have had me “proned-out on the ground†as soon as I walked past them with a firearm on my hip. “Is that how you think I should deal with you?†I said “However you think it should be handled†and remained quiet, as I did not wish to enter into an argument. I asked him to hand my girlfriend the keys to my car, so that she could put away our groceries, which he did.

At this point his backup arrived in a cruiser, and he told me to stay put, and asked the Red-shirted Loss Prevention Wal-Mart employee to watch me, and then went to speak to the other officer. I looked over at my girlfriend who was understandably upset, and tried to console her. When the officer returned with his partner, he handed me back my work keys, knives and light, and told me to “put them away†and then handed me back my holstered firearm, and said “take it, and conceal it. Do it.†I retrieved my items, put them away, and asked if I was free to leave. He nodded, and I retrieved my girlfriend, and walked to my car.

Points of Complaint-
TCA §39-13-101 - Assault. At no time before, after or during the incident of the 21st was there any probable Officer Greene to lay hands upon me, or to subsequently propel me towards a building wall. Officer Greene or any other officer of the law, as per TCA§39-17-1351, may disarm a permit holder within the course of his duties, but only “when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals[1].†As I had no suspicious appearance and was engaged in no criminal or even suspicious activity, nor indeed any activity other than walking out of a public store, at normal speed with my hands in plain view; reasonable belief that I represented a danger or threat to any person could not have been based simply upon view of a holstered firearm. Officer Greene’s claim that I was “inciting a panic†was absurd, as he was the only person to object to my legally carried firearm during my visit to the store, unless he himself was panicked.

The same opinion makes it clear that Tennessee State law does not require a person granted a Handgun Carry Permit under TCA §39-17-1351, to carry such a firearm concealed. Hence, no probable cause for detainment, frisk, or disarmament existed, other than my legal carry of a handgun. The act of carrying a firearm openly does not, on its own, represent a crime, and therefore, is not, by itself, probable cause for the officer to disarm such a person carrying a firearm legally, as per the Attorney General’s instruction of October 11, 2005[2]. His ignorance of the TN Code’s absence of a requirement that a legally carried handgun be concealed, and the Attorney General’s clarification of this stance, is no excuse for his illegal handling of my person or property.

Illegal Search - As per the Tennessee State Constitution, Sec. 7, TN citizens are to be “secure in their persons… from unreasonable searches and seizuresâ€[3]. As no legal probable cause for my physical detainment existed, Officer Greene’s subsequent frisk and seizure of my personal property, including my wallet, flashlight, keys and carry firearm, constitute an illegal search under TN law. “Officer safety†is not a valid defense to this Section when the underlying cause for the disarmament is legally invalid.

In conclusion, I will state that I appreciate the difficult and demanding job Knoxville Police officers have taken on as their profession, and that they must at all times keep their own safety to the forefront. However, these concerns cannot be permitted to override the individual right of the people of TN to be free from arbitrary, unlawful or uninformed police action as they peaceably go about their business.

I would have been happy to provide identification as asked, and attempted to do so, as asked, and responded politely and respectfully to questions of comments. I would have even complied with a polite request that I conceal my firearm, to prevent uneasiness on the part of other shoppers, even though it is not required by law. However, the officer made the choice to physically handle me in a rough manner, and further subjected me to ill-informed harassment on the statues of the State of Tennessee.
This is utterly unacceptable, both on the part of the officer who made the decision to forcibly restrain, then to attempt to instruct me, and on the part of the police dept that permitted an officer of their department to go so woefully uneducated on TN law for his stated 7 years of employment with the Knoxville Police Dept.

To further hear a duly sworn officer of the law announce, in front of multiple witnesses that he would “find some cause†to wrongfully imprison me, is beyond shocking to me. I can’t imagine what was running through his mind when he made that statement to me, but I cannot and will not assume that such behavior is permitted or condoned by the KPD, unless of course, the Knoxville Police Department’s high-ranking authority figures fail to strongly demonstrate otherwise.

The state of Tennessee recognizes and grants a regulated and restricted right to keep and bear arms, and those who have undergone the arduous process of obtaining a TN Handgun Carry Permit are not the enemy of the police officer, but rather, his ally. At my place of business, we have certified hundreds of people through the TN Handgun Carry Permit Class, and encourage all of them to behave in a safe, sane and above all, legal manner. To have that trust that their Handgun Carry Permit, when finally issued after multiple checks, will not be properly recognized or respected by KPD officers when it is exercised, is inexcusable to myself and all people in the State of Tennessee. Many hundreds of Knoxvillians, new and seasoned shooters alike attained carry permits, in the wake of the Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom murders, and they will watch closely for the Department’s official response to this utterly incorrect handling of a TN Carry Permit holder.

I have not, at this time, retained counsel for redress of the aforementioned violations of my rights under the law, but reserve the right to do so. I will, should I choose to file suit, copy you on the service as a courtesy.

Lieutenant Ferguson, I appreciate your attention to this matter, and hope that we will correspond further regarding the department’s response. Should you wish to reach me for a meeting regarding this matter, please feel free to contact me at ***.***.****.

â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"â€"-
[1] TCA § 39-17-1351 (t)
[2] TN Attorney General Opinion #05-154 (http://www.attorneygeneral.state.tn.us/ ... /OP154.pdf)
[3] Tennessee State Constitution, Sec. 7, Unreasonable searches and seizures
And the response from KPD:
Well, the Internal Affairs unit sent me a letter today.
Their determination was that the officer in question violated the departmental regulations regarding “knowledge of laws and regulations and courtesyâ€. This occured due to the officer’s confusion about the law in his previous state of police employment, Ohio, (I’ve gotta try that sometime, “I’m sorry, your honor, I thought I was in Ohio.â€) where open carry is prohibited.
The official action(s) taken are:
- A written reprimand for the officer, “which reprimand carries with it certain inter-departmental consequences beyond just a notation in their personnel file.â€
- Remedial training in TN Handgun Carry Permit law, and in dealing with the public.
- All KPD officers will be undergoing refresher training on Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit law during the next in-service training session.
- An apology from the Chief of Police, Sterling Owen.
I’m still processing how I feel about it. I’m glad it wasn’t swept under the rug, and at the same time, think that the reprimand could have been a bit more fitting. I’m not injured, I wasn’t falsely arrested, but my evening started when I got pushed at a wall for breaking no law, and nothing that happened afterwards really makes up for that.
 

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And his confusion of the law? He had been an officer in Tennessee for 7 years and he's still getting laws confused? How did he even graduate from the Academy?
 

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budder said:
I thought OC was legal in Ohio. Isn't that why Dan Sayers had that giant cf?
Bingo!
Ohio is a traditional open carry state. Recently, the Ohio legislature passed HB-12 over Governor Taft's veto, thus preempting all local open carry bans even in Ohio's "home rule" localities.
Yeah, the cop would have been committing battery in Ohio as well.
 
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