takes too long

Discussion in 'GWL News & Information' started by johnpeace, Mar 18, 2005.

  1. johnpeace

    johnpeace Guest

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    I just called to check on the status of my permit application. Many of you know that I moved to Georgia in December, then applied for my permit on Jan. 14th in Hall Co.

    I just talked to Lisa at Hall Co. Probate Court and she very matter of factly told me that first time permits take 3 1/2 months! When I told her Ga. law says 60 days she put me on hold to check the status. When she came back it was to tell me that my state BG check is not complete yet (much less the FBI one).

    I politely pointed out that Ga. law says permits shall be issued within 60 days, and that issuing in 3 1/2 months makes Hall Probate Court in violation of Ga. law. She said, 'well, I guess we're violating the law then'. Like it didn't matter at all.

    She said she would have the judge call me. Maybe the judge can explain how this is legal and where the responsibility for the delay lies.
     
  2. gkbikers

    gkbikers Guest

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    Sorry about your experience with getting a permit. It can be a pain.

    Your experience with the clerk does showcase a pitfall in having too much confidence in "the rule of law." If a law cannot be enforced, it is worse than useless. I DO believe our basic system founded on the rule of law is the best one, but it does have its short-comings (like everything. . .nothing is perfect).

    In your situation, the cost of you pursuing justice will far outweigh the value you would receive. By the time you add your time, legal fees, and headaches, with only a chance of success, your "enforcement" of the law stating you will receive a license within 60 days is not feasible.

    Seems like most of the laws work well for government, doesn't it?
     

  3. GAJohn

    GAJohn Guest

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    Don't feel bad

    My permit took 5 1/2 months to get. I'm in Fulton. You can still have the weapon holstered in your vehicle in the glove box, center console, or on the passenger seat.

    Hopefully your permit will come, I know how frustrating the wait can be.
     
  4. johnpeace

    johnpeace Guest

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    It's not so much the wait..I can live with that.

    It's the matter of factness with which the probate court secretary told me 3 1/2 months...even though the act that became law says 60 days.

    The unofficial AG opinion is that since a BG check is required, if the BG check takes longer than 60 days, the permit will take longer than 60 days.

    This sort of has me steaming:

    Here I am, applying for a paper signifying permission from the state. Permission to exercise a God given (endowed by our creator), inalienable right that is explicitly recognized and guaranteed by our constitution.

    That the state must give me permission to exercise a right is just plain insulting to me.

    Analogy: we have the right to travel freely. Do you think it would fly with the people of America if we had to have a permit (stand in line, pay a fee, wait 3 1/2 months) to take a trip outside of our state of residence?

    The permit is a violation of constitutionally recognized rights, I don't care what the supreme court ruled.

    The next thing about it that has me steamed is that the state is understaffed and underfunded AND uses that as an excuse for why it can't grant me the insulting, unnecessary permit to exercise the right that it's constitution says shall not be infringed.

    This is not the constitutional republic that Jefferson idealized...this is a perversion.
     
  5. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    When I first started at Packing.org I had several people as me what was the delay and why it exists since the law says 60 days.

    I called (right now I forget the county) a probate court that even today says it takes 6 months on their website. Now, it is one thing for the GBI/FBI check to occasionally take longer than 50 days to come back, but they said the average time each permit takes is 6 months, some take more.

    The worst part of it was, I was treated as if this information was private and why am I asking them since I already have my permit. It was like pulling teeth just to get a simple answer. Such as a person at the AG's office told me that "Shall" does not mean "must".

    What I came away with was that they can take all the time they want to and the only way to make them comply is to bring a court case. To bring a court case you have to have "standing" to legally file a case against the county. To get "standing", you have to "suffer harm" while your permit is being delayed.

    So you have to be unarmed and robbed or mugged before you can make the probate court follow the law. Great system we have sometimes.


    What can be done:
    The Unofficial Opinion was done in 1978. I am pretty sure that the part of the 129 that says no paper is required for a clean record was added after 1978 but I am not positive. If it was, we get a Rep. or Sen. to send a letter to the AG asking for a new Unofficial Opinion, clarifying exactly how long they should take.

    Even if the UOp is heavily worded in our favor, some counties will still not follow the law. If you live in one of those counties, you still have no way to protest it besides talking to the probate judge or your state rep, but if both of them are anti-gun you are still stuck with a long wait.

    We will probably have to push a bill, where on the 60th day if the license is not ready, a temporary permit will be issued until you get your GFL or you are denied. (based on Virginia's law)
    We might also need to either extend the temporary permit past 90 days or simply say that in this case a Temporary permit does not expire until you have your GFL or a denial is given.

    If we can help HB 799 get passed with WMA's attached then we could add this fix to our bill for next year since Sections 7 and 8 would have passed not be needed.
     
  6. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    Yes, that is Insult #1.

    Insult #2 comes when you realize that after all this time and money you are spending to have a Right recognized, you pretty much cannot carry at any state property that your taxes have paid for.

    You pay your taxes which allows the upkeep of State parks and other places around the state and the GFL that the state makes you pay for, that basically says we know you are law abiding enough to carry a firearm, we still will not allow you to carry on any property your taxes have paid for.

    You would think, at the least, a permit the state has to approve you for would automatically allow you to carry on most public use state property. Not in Georgia.
     
  7. johnpeace

    johnpeace Guest

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    I think that the obvious injustice and insult of that would not escape some of our representatives. Language that clearly points out the insult and injustice of the public property carry ban ought to accompany any of our communications with lawmakers about public property carry.

    Why is there a permit anyway? It's already against the law to commit crimes against people...isn't that enough? Why do we have to also criminalize carrying a gun under the seat of your car or wherever else you want to?
     
  8. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    60 days

    I'm not sure what the legislature was thinking when they said that counties only have 60 days to issue a gun permit, but if I were writing that kind of provision in the law, it would be MY firm intention to force the government to issue the permit on day 60, unless they (the State) could identify some evidence that the applicant is ineligible, or at least that they have uncovered evidence that is likely to lead to other evidence, now being diligently sought, that will prove the person to be ineligible.

    If this means that due to understaffing or underachievement at the probate court, the police or sheriff's department, or the GBI, or the FBI, an unqualified person gets a gun, well, SO BE IT. Then after the blunder is found, the person can be contacted and his gun confiscated, etc.

    But I would err on the side of liberty and freedom, and personal security, over the government's interest in delaying your rights as long as they want so they can take their good old sweet time in processing your paperwork.
     
  9. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Perhaps a sentence in plain language stating exactly that in 16-11-129 would be good for the statute.
     
  10. johnpeace

    johnpeace Guest

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    It finally came on day 90.
     
  11. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    30 days over, at a $1,000 daily penalty . . .
     
  12. Kahr Driver

    Kahr Driver Guest

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    Congratulations John, you now one of the elite:). Hopefully you'll never have to use weapon, but at least you have the option.
     
  13. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Why does a background check take so long? In my little corner of rural Georgia, a G.C.I.C. report takes about 10 minutes. Police officers often get a background check done on a criminal suspect on their way to the magistrate to get a warrant, and incorporate that information into the warrant.


    If the intent of the legislature was to give the state and county officials a motivation to issue permits quickly rather than delay them without any cause, maybe that 60-day provision is helpful. But if the legislature wanted to maximize liberty and freedom, they'd change the law to read that any license application MUST be approved within 60 days, unless the authorities have, at that time, found information that gives them probable cause to believe that the person is inelible to get such a permit.


    Or even better, they could say that if a citizen's application for a permit has neither been approved or denied after 70 days (gives some time for mailing) since it was submitted, then photocopies of the documents submitted plus a sworn affidavit by that individual saying that he or she has never been convicted of any felony or a domestic violence misdemeanor, etc, will be a valid substitute for a permit for up to one year.
     
  14. johnpeace

    johnpeace Guest

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    I agree. The current opinion of the AG that a permit can take as long as the background check basically means that the state can arbitrarily delay or refuse to issue a permit.

    The probate court simply has to blame it on the background check.

    What if Hillary were elected and pointed an anti 2A FBI director,...who then instructed the FBI not to process permit background checks?

    I don't think it's the legislatures intent for the state to have that much control over whether we can carry or not. It sort of defeats the whole purpose of 'shall issue'.

    I believe the only just law is one in which we're allowed to carry with no permit, wherever we want, so long as we are eligible according to the current guidlines (convictions, immigration status, mental health, etc).
     
  15. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    I have been looking at Virginia's law, in which if the background check is not done and a permit issued after 45 days, a copy of the application will be made, cetified, and sent to the applicant. It is a valid permit if presented with a Virginia ID (drivers license).
     
  16. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    This might be a good separate bill (until we can get Alaska's law through).
     
  17. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    If HB 952 has its way, then the renewal license will take just as long . . .
     
  18. DAY 91

    WELL.... THE WIFE AND I ARE AT DAY 91 AND STILL WAITING..... CALLED PROBATE COURT TODAY ADN THEY SAID..."STILL WAITING ON BACKGROUND... HAVEN'T HEARD BACK YET" ... I ASKED HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT IT TO TAKE? .. AND SHE REPLIED..." YOU NEVER KNOW.... WE WILL CALL YOU WHEN WE GET IT."
    CAN THEY JUST TAKE AS LONG AS IT TAKES?????? AREN'T TEHY INFRINGING ON OUR 2ND AMMENDMENT RIGHT AT THIS POINT??????
     
  19. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    What Second Amendment right? The Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals says there is not one.

    The only thing they are violating is O.C.G.A. 16-11-129(d), and that does not matter because nobody will follow through with holding them to it.

    Read this one, if you haven't already seen it:

    https://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=155
     
  20. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Remember the bad old days before GCO? :D