Survival Point Shooting

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by 5shot, Oct 18, 2010.

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  1. 5shot

    5shot New Member

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    I am a firm believer that for effective shooting, the sights must be in alignment and placed on the target.

    Here's a link to a homemade video titled Survival Point Shooting that I just uploaded to U-Tube. You may find it of interest:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4kNmEYyEk

    Here is a link to a text + pics version:
    http://www.pointshooting.com/1aimedps.htm

    I put them together as a general response to an ILEETA based article in Police Magazine that was touting that Officers need to "aim when they train" so they will Point Shoot well under stress. Here's a link to that article and one of mine that responds specifically to the content of the article:

    Police Mag: http://www.policemag.com/Blog/Firea...nel-Debates-Point-Shooting-vs-Aimed-Fire.aspx

    My direct response: http://www.pointshooting.com/1aalexis.htm

    As long as "Sight Shooters" keep bringing up their theory that SS is the cat's meow for combat, IMHO, a response is in order.

    Sight Shooting has been taught for 100+ years to millions and millions.

    Yet there are no pics or videos of it being used effectively in a close quarters life threat situation. There should be hundreds to thousands of them, but they are as rare as hen's teeth.

    What the scientific studies and stats have shown, is that Sight Shooting fails to be used in most all close quarters life threat situations, either due to poor lighting, the dynamics of the situations, or the automatic activation of our Fight or Flight response and its effects, one of which is the loss of the ability to focus on near objects like the sights.

    To train Officers and the public to use Sight Shooting, which is a proven failure in close quarters life threat situations, or to supply them with opinions and unproven theories to use in their self defense, will leave them with no practical and effective shooting method to use to stay alive in close quarters life threat situations.

    As such, they will be set up to be shot and/or killed in situations where there is the greatest likely hood of that happening.

    And to me, that is immoral, if not criminal.

    ..........

    The following is from a research article on the SureSight site that deals with the use of the sights in gunfights.

    "It is an acknowledged fact that very few gunfight survivors ever remember seeing their sights at all during a life-threatening encounter. In other words, regardless of the amount of practice using the sights at the target range, the vast majority of shootout survivors are unable to see their sights when faced with life-threatening stress. One study found that when faced with stress, "93% of officers focused on the threat, not the weapon, and 88% of the officers resorted to binocular vision.'â€

    If you know of a pic/s or a video/s of sight shooting being used effectively in CQ Gunfights, please send me a link to it/them. I will post the links to a page on my site that is dedicated to that purpose. To date its blank as the total I know of or have been made aware of since Jan 2000 = 0.

    Here's a link to it: http://www.pointshooting.com/1april1.htm

    I consider Point Shooting of ANY TYPE to be better for real life threat close quarters situations than Sight Shooting. Most are not a bar to using the sights if they can be seen and used, and there is time for that.

    Here's a link to an article on my site about a Chicago Policeman who has been in 14 gunfights, shot 9, 5 died. He practices Point Shooting and at close range.

    http://www.pointshooting.com/1astasch.htm

    Here's Jack Ruby giving Oswald the bird and killing him using P&S.

    [​IMG]

    Note Ruby's middle finger is clearly thru the trigger guard and was used to pull the trigger. (The picture was made just after Oswald was shot.)
     
  2. Pandashire

    Pandashire New Member

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    Haven't you posted this before?
     

  3. NTA

    NTA Well-Known Member

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    Seems someone posted the downside to this is your 1911 will take itself apart when your finger rides along the right side.

    That was a mighty high grip on the semi-auto pistol in the video.

    Off I go to practice this with my big revolvers.
     
  4. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    I agree that in a close-range self-defense situation, you may not have time to line up the sights, or even get a "flash sight picture."
    We need to be able to just point the gun and score a hit, fast. And by ignoring the sights, I can go a lot faster.
    I'm not going to put my trigger finger up on the slide of the pistol or along the cylinder of a revolver (think of the hot gases coming out of the cylinder gap!)
    BUt I will, and do, practice shooting from the hip, shooting from mid-chest level, and shooting with the gun raised in front of my face but my eyes are NOT on the gun, they're 100% on the target only.
    Hitting the 8.5" x 11" notebook paper at 5 yards seems a realistic goal for shooting with no sights, so long as there is enough light that you still can make out the image of your gun barrel from your peripheral vision.

    (If I had to shoot a gun in total darkness, I might use the index-finger pointing techniquie. Because in a truly dark environment, my "group size" has proven to be the size of a refrigerator at about 15 feet.)
     
  5. NTA

    NTA Well-Known Member

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    exactly my poorly made point
     
  6. Editingfx

    Editingfx New Member

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    Yeah, I remember this topic from awhile ago.

    Trolling for website traffic, maybe?
     
  7. Archangel

    Archangel Moderator Staff Member

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    This dweeb periodically goes and posts this crap all over the place.

    There are only a couple of really good uses for the middle finger and pulling the trigger ain't one em.

    This and the "deadly defect" of the 1911 or some such crapola.

    The only way it's a "deadly defect" is if you use his goofy method of using the middle finger to pull the trigger.
     
  8. 5shot

    5shot New Member

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    The Army pistol manual calls for using "Quick-Fire Point Shooting" at less than 5 yards and at night. The gun is brought up close to the body in a two handed grip. Then at chin level, it is thrust forward. And the trigger is smoothly squeezed as the elbows straighten out.

    As to the video, it is NEW. I made it in response to the article about "aiming when you train".

    IMHO, Sight Shooting advocates are setting up those who buy into it for CQB use, to be shot or killed, as the science and the stats say that it won't be used in most all cases.

    Bad advice needs to be countered.

    Some may say that the counter is also bad advice, but science and the stats say otherwise.

    I support Point Shooting methods for use in CQB: like P&S, CAR, QK, and FAS, not instinctive spray and pray shooting or Sight Shooting, unless there is both the time and ability to use the sights.

    And these 4 methods are not a bar to using the sights.
     
  9. 1str8shot

    1str8shot New Member

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    not this crap again........... :screwy:

    there is only one thing i feel like using my middle finger for right now, and it aint pullin the trigger..........
     
  10. gruntpain1775

    gruntpain1775 New Member

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    Go away.

    Oh yea...and if you think ANYONE in the Army uses the manual for shooting you are wrong.
     
  11. Nothclif

    Nothclif Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  12. MLS 4506

    MLS 4506 Active Member

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    the accepted definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.GO AWAY!
     
  13. mpc

    mpc New Member

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    No it's not. It's just a stupid saying that has caught on but has no basis in reality. Almost every achievement, rather big or small, has been repeating failures until it turns into success.
     
  14. gruntpain1775

    gruntpain1775 New Member

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    So you are changing a variable to become successful, thus you are not doing the same thing.
     
  15. mpc

    mpc New Member

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    Bingo! That's one of the reasons that makes the saying so unrealistic and why repeating the "definition" is silly, to put it politely. It's literally impossible to do something exactly like one did it before. However, no one tries to get a peanut butter lid off the jar, fails and gives up. They try again expecting that the lid will come off. Insanity? Hardly.
     
  16. CountryGun

    CountryGun New Member

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    I've been really hesitant to post for fear someone would think me very strange. After all. I'm old.

    I stumbled on point shooting long before this post. I'd honestly never heard of it, and I was afraid to admit it to my friends. Middle finger? For crying out loud! It went against all of the military training I've ever had, and I was on a post large bore and pistol team. I can hear the criticism coming! My original experiment was to see how I would fire if I lost my index finger. Surprise! Our ability to point is extremely accurate, and I soon learned I was putting more slugs in the 10X ring when I tried it. Our ability to point has been learned since birth.

    Given the opportunity to use my sights, I certainly will! I know sight shooting offers greater precision, if, and only if I have time for precise sight acquisition, and I'm afforded time to do so. In reflex situations; however, and in close quarters, I'm relying on my ability to point. You only have to try a few rounds, without regard to your sights, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Keep the distance under seven yards. You guys who've never given it a shot, should probably place that middle digit elsewhere. Ask the officer who fired at an assailant and missed six out of eight times. He'll tell you his sights were a blur. Pointing might have landed seven of eight rounds.
     
  17. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    This is the fourth topic you've posted about the same issue. Give it a rest.
     
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