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So I stop these Gwinnett officers to inquire into what is their policy on open carry. Keep in mind that I was not trying to argue with them, as I wanted to hear their justifications and opinions without putting them on the defensive.
I was in the Gwinnett courthouse, and I saw a younger officer and an older one, with gold bars, so I thought, great, I will get the street officer and the supervisor opinion in one shot.
For those not inclined to read the whole post, the short answer is: Prepare to be detained, disarmed, and treated like you are possibly the VT shooter.
So I approach and politely ask them if they have a couple of minutes to speak with me, and I ask whether they have a policy or practice regarding openly carried pistols, and I make it very clear that I am talking about carrying in a place where one is legal to carry. I also set it up as - no call, they just see a guy with a pistol in a holster.
Stop, disarm, question, checkout.
"Disarm?" I ask, alarmed. "Sir, just so I am clear, I stated that you see someone in a place that is legal to carry, and you have not received a complaint."
"Yes, I will take your weapon. I will check you out. If eveything is fine, I will let you go." He mentioned the license.
"But what is your probable cause or reasonable suspicion?"
"Your gun."
He made it sound like this is department wide practice.
I asked whether he stops cars just to check and see whether the driver has a driver's license. He said he did.
"Without witnessing a traffic offense?" I asked like this ---> :shock:
"No, I have probable cause when I see a traffic offense."
"So what is your probable cause when you see an openly carried holster?"
"Your gun," he responded, and assurred me he would stop me if he saw me carrying openly a pistol in a holster, but tried to mitigate his statement by affirming that he would let me go on my way after checking the license.
I then turned to the older gentlemen with the gold bars, and inquired, "So what does the supervisor say?"
His face grew into a very suspicious expression, and he said, "Why are you asking all of these questions?"
:sly:
He asked, "Did you get arrested and charged with this?"
He never did say what "this" would have been.
:roll:
So I decided to throw in the ex-LEO card to keep them talking, as I sensed otherwise he was too suspicious to speak freely to an "outsider" like me, and I told him I spent twelve years as a police officer and I would never have stopped somebody for simply openly carrying a pistol in a holster, because there is no reasonable suspicion of a crime. It is legal.
"How often do you see people carrying?" he asked.
"Pretty frequently," I answered, realizing now that we probably ran in different crowds. I informed him I carry every day now.
"Openly!?!" he interjected.
"Yes, at least three or four times a week, sometimes in front of police officers, and I have never been stopped, but I heard from this guy in Savannah, who was stopped and threatened with arrest by an officer who erroneously thought open carry was illegal."
He then took on an authoritative tone and said, "Your gun gives me all the probable cause I need. Yes, we are going to stop you and check you out. What if you were the VT shooter running around campus. Should nobody check that out?"
"Well, sir, as I understand it, the law in Virginia allows them to eject people with firearms from the University, as does the law in Georgia, so I would think then you have your reasonable suspicion or probable cause in that circumstance, but please keep in mind that I am speaking about you seeing an openly carried pistol in a place that is not off limits, like out on the sidewalk."
"Your gun gives me all the reasonable suspicion I need. Rest assured we would check you out."
I thanked them for their time.
So, I ask, what is the reasonable suspicion standard about? I thought it was reasonable suspicion that a crime was being committed or about to be committed. What is the crime?
If it is the crime of carrying a pistol without a license, what is the reasonable suspicion that you do not have a license, and how is this the same/different from the car license example?
I was in the Gwinnett courthouse, and I saw a younger officer and an older one, with gold bars, so I thought, great, I will get the street officer and the supervisor opinion in one shot.
For those not inclined to read the whole post, the short answer is: Prepare to be detained, disarmed, and treated like you are possibly the VT shooter.
So I approach and politely ask them if they have a couple of minutes to speak with me, and I ask whether they have a policy or practice regarding openly carried pistols, and I make it very clear that I am talking about carrying in a place where one is legal to carry. I also set it up as - no call, they just see a guy with a pistol in a holster.
Stop, disarm, question, checkout.
"Disarm?" I ask, alarmed. "Sir, just so I am clear, I stated that you see someone in a place that is legal to carry, and you have not received a complaint."
"Yes, I will take your weapon. I will check you out. If eveything is fine, I will let you go." He mentioned the license.
"But what is your probable cause or reasonable suspicion?"
"Your gun."
He made it sound like this is department wide practice.
I asked whether he stops cars just to check and see whether the driver has a driver's license. He said he did.
"Without witnessing a traffic offense?" I asked like this ---> :shock:
"No, I have probable cause when I see a traffic offense."
"So what is your probable cause when you see an openly carried holster?"
"Your gun," he responded, and assurred me he would stop me if he saw me carrying openly a pistol in a holster, but tried to mitigate his statement by affirming that he would let me go on my way after checking the license.
I then turned to the older gentlemen with the gold bars, and inquired, "So what does the supervisor say?"
His face grew into a very suspicious expression, and he said, "Why are you asking all of these questions?"
:sly:
He asked, "Did you get arrested and charged with this?"
He never did say what "this" would have been.
:roll:
So I decided to throw in the ex-LEO card to keep them talking, as I sensed otherwise he was too suspicious to speak freely to an "outsider" like me, and I told him I spent twelve years as a police officer and I would never have stopped somebody for simply openly carrying a pistol in a holster, because there is no reasonable suspicion of a crime. It is legal.
"How often do you see people carrying?" he asked.
"Pretty frequently," I answered, realizing now that we probably ran in different crowds. I informed him I carry every day now.
"Openly!?!" he interjected.
"Yes, at least three or four times a week, sometimes in front of police officers, and I have never been stopped, but I heard from this guy in Savannah, who was stopped and threatened with arrest by an officer who erroneously thought open carry was illegal."
He then took on an authoritative tone and said, "Your gun gives me all the probable cause I need. Yes, we are going to stop you and check you out. What if you were the VT shooter running around campus. Should nobody check that out?"
"Well, sir, as I understand it, the law in Virginia allows them to eject people with firearms from the University, as does the law in Georgia, so I would think then you have your reasonable suspicion or probable cause in that circumstance, but please keep in mind that I am speaking about you seeing an openly carried pistol in a place that is not off limits, like out on the sidewalk."
"Your gun gives me all the reasonable suspicion I need. Rest assured we would check you out."
I thanked them for their time.
So, I ask, what is the reasonable suspicion standard about? I thought it was reasonable suspicion that a crime was being committed or about to be committed. What is the crime?
If it is the crime of carrying a pistol without a license, what is the reasonable suspicion that you do not have a license, and how is this the same/different from the car license example?
