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Re: Another take on the ammo/etc debate

boom boom said:
Another point of data is this website
http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

also see
http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

And this controversial S&W Forum posting
summarized at http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

Original post: (have to register) http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums ... 026821/p/1
Man, I made my way through that S&W thread once and it was a really good read. I'm glad the "summary" is only about 1/3 as long!.
 

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Lawyer and Gun Activist
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13 and 1/2 years later, I think we ought to hear from some new people on this topic?

Let's assume that everybody everybody says big buckshot, like 00 size, is ideal when loading your shotgun for defense.

But, how much less are you protected if all you have is birdshot?

In today's serious ammo crises, where all the store shelves are empty and there's not a round of buckshot to be found from any dealer anywhere, and scalpers are offering their buckshot loads for $3 to $5 per shell in private-party sales,
I can envision a newbie buying his or her first defensive long gun and walking out the door with a 12-gauge (or 20 ga.) shotgun with an 18.5 to 20" cylinder-choke (no choke) barrel, and two boxes of low-brass birdshot, like #7.5, or maybe a phesant and rabbit load of #6 birdshot.
IS THAT STILL SUITABLE for defense?
What would be the practical limit on range-- distance?
 

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Lawyer and Gun Activist
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Birdshot is ok if you are really, really close. I have seen an entire cranium evacuated as a result of birdshot. In addition to that, it was fatal. :lol:

I'm guessing that was a suicide, where not only did the shot charge all hit together like a big thumb-sized bullet, but where all the high pressure gas was pushed into the guy's head right behind the projectiles. It's as much an intracranial explosion as a gunshot wound under such circumstances.

But I agree that despite the lack of penetration of small birdshot loads, they can do enough damage to enough cubic inches of flesh within a few inches of the surface of the body that they should be effective IF, and only if, they are fired from such close range that (1) they don't lose any velocity in the air, and (2) they hit together in one mass, with no more spacing between the pellets than a couple of millimeters, and many hitting right on top of each other to greatly increase their penetration.

We're talking spitting distance, not even pepper-spray distance or spitting distance. A few yards at the most.
 

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Man of Myth and Legend
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I have a mold. Anyone have some wheel weights?

Nemo
 

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I'm guessing that was a suicide, where not only did the shot charge all hit together like a big thumb-sized bullet, but where all the high pressure gas was pushed into the guy's head right behind the projectiles. It's as much an intracranial explosion as a gunshot wound under such circumstances.

But I agree that despite the lack of penetration of small birdshot loads, they can do enough damage to enough cubic inches of flesh within a few inches of the surface of the body that they should be effective IF, and only if, they are fired from such close range that (1) they don't lose any velocity in the air, and (2) they hit together in one mass, with no more spacing between the pellets than a couple of millimeters, and many hitting right on top of each other to greatly increase their penetration.

We're talking spitting distance, not even pepper-spray distance or spitting distance. A few yards at the most.
He put it in his mouth, upward angle, and pulled the trigger. From the top, his head looked like a white, kind of messy, bowl.
 

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Teh first rule of a gun fight is have a gun. Loaded. Things become less significant pretty rapidly after that. My preferred load for 12ga is about anything labeled "buck." I have a preference for #4 buck, which is kinda sorta a full magazine from an M16 (27 pellets of .22cal size, just not as fast).
In .45acp it doesn't matter. Ball ammo works just fine.
In .38spc the gold standard is the FBI load: 158gr lead hollow point semi wadcutter +P doing about 850fps.
While the 125gr .357mag load is generally considerd the gold standard for that round, I never liked it. It kicks too much and wears the gun quite a bit (it destroyed a bunch of K-frames). I load 155gr Winchester Silvertips over a Vihtavuori powder and that feels comfortable enough for me.

Anotehr article I saw years ago claimed that because pretty much all defensive pistol ammo is designed to do the same thing (10" penetration in gelatin) it didnt matter. That might have some validity. But I still have my favorites.
 
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