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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Can I run a build as a pistol while waiting for my tax stamp? I'll have a pistol buffer tube, and then just change the buffer tube out and throw a stock in it when I get the stamp. I've heard you can build a pistol into a rifle legally, but not a rifle into a pistol. So I just want to make sure running the non specific lower as a pistol will not hurt getting my tax stamp for it in the future.
Thanks!
 

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Can I run a build as a pistol while waiting for my tax stamp? I'll have a pistol buffer tube, and then just change the buffer tube out and throw a stock in it when I get the stamp. I've heard you can build a pistol into a rifle legally, but not a rifle into a pistol. So I just want to make sure running the non specific lower as a pistol will not hurt getting my tax stamp for it in the future.
Thanks!
Yes. Absolutely.

In fact, this is how I prefer to do it. That was you can make sure there are no odd/crazy issues with your lower.

Blows my mind the folks that will submit a stripped lower... having never fired a round through it.

Sure.. chances are it'll be fine... but why take the chance when you're putting $200 and months of your life waiting on the line.

Make/buy it as a pistol... shoot it... submit it... then add the stock when approved. That's how I've done every SBR I have!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes. Absolutely.

In fact, this is how I prefer to do it. That was you can make sure there are no odd/crazy issues with your lower.

Blows my mind the folks that will submit a stripped lower... having never fired a round through it.

Sure.. chances are it'll be fine... but why take the chance when you're putting $200 and months of your life waiting on the line.

Make/buy it as a pistol... shoot it... submit it... then add the stock when approved. That's how I've done every SBR I have!
Awesome. Thanks. I just wanted to make dang sure
 

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I'll have a pistol buffer tube, and then just change the buffer tube out and throw a stock in it when I get the stamp.
You can have a pistol or rifle buffer tube on a pistol build as long as you don't have a stock on it. For example, the standard Colt M4 buffer tube is legal to use as long as the stock isn't on it.
 

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Having a carbine buffer extension on the firearm + a stock laying around your house would be questionable at best.

I'd put the pistol tube on for now and be done with it. Can always sell that later to recoup the funds.
 

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I would suggest a KAK blade pistol brace. may change your mind about even bothering with a tax stamp to make it an official SBR.
 

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Having a carbine buffer extension on the firearm + a stock laying around your house would be questionable at best.

I'd put the pistol tube on for now and be done with it. Can always sell that later to recoup the funds.
ATF has said the Colt M4 buffer tube is legal on a pistol build (you can find it on ar15.com if you feel like wasting some time). If you're that worried that the ATF and/or some other LE agency is going to raid your house and find that unattached stock sitting in your safe, then you have much deeper things to be concerned about than getting your Form 1 approved! :lol:
 

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I would suggest a KAK blade pistol brace. may change your mind about even bothering with a tax stamp to make it an official SBR.
A KAK pistol buffer tube and Shockwave brace are the most expedient way to wait out the Form 1 approval as you can actually shoot the thing at the range. That's what I did. But no way I want to deal with the BS about not shouldering a braced pistol.
 

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I wouldn't recommend having a loose AR stock in the house (that is, a stock that's not attached to a AR pattern RIFLE at the moment) if you own an AR pistol that you intend to make an SBR out of. That's what the ATF calls "constructive possession."
ATF has arrested people for merely possessing all the necessary parts to make an SBR before, even without any evidence that the person ever assembled those parts and actually made an SBR. Having the knowledge to do so, the ability to do so, and the intent to (one day) do so is enough.
 

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A KAK pistol buffer tube and Shockwave brace are the most expedient way to wait out the Form 1 approval as you can actually shoot the thing at the range. That's what I did. But no way I want to deal with the BS about not shouldering a braced pistol.
Let's be honest for a second. The KAK blade is designed to not be fired from the shoulder just like the bongs at a smoke shop are designed for tobacco use. You could use it the way the manufacturer instructs you to to cover their butt with the ATF, but nobody does, and everybody, including the ATF, knows daggum well that that's how it works. Just don't use it incorrectly in front of law enforcement or post proof that you've done so on the internet.
 

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Actual 7th Circuit federal court of appeals ruling on constructive possession of SBR's -- unassembled kits were the offending weapons here, and they were only unlawful because the barrels were threaded for flash hiders that, if said flash hiders would have been welded on permanently, would have otherwise made the weapons "rifles" and out of the NFA's coverage.

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/us_v_drasen.txt

Flash hiders on the front end of a rifle-- or a stock on the back end of a pistol: It's the same issue, and courts will apply the same analysis.
 

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You can have a pistol or rifle buffer tube on a pistol build as long as you don't have a stock on it. For example, the standard Colt M4 buffer tube is legal to use as long as the stock isn't on it.
Being "on it" as in "installed on the firearm in question" isn't how the ATF or U.S. Attorney's office will view it.

https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/

In the above case, Mr. Amador was adamant that he never had his stock and vertical fore-end on that pistol of his, and he never intended to, but he only bought those parts just in case he wanted to apply on a Form 1 to manufacture an SBR, and he "knew" that he would have to have his NFA stamp approved before actually putting those parts on his gun. The cops said NO, that's not how it works, just having this collection of parts is enough.

Just possessing all the necessary parts to convert a rifle or pistol to an SBR is itself illegal, unless you have a "pistol to rifle-- and back" type conversion kit, and you keep it in such a way that shows your intent is to only use the rifle stock at the same time as you use the rifle-length barrel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Co.
 

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I wouldn't recommend having a loose AR stock in the house (that is, a stock that's not attached to a AR pattern RIFLE at the moment) if you own an AR pistol that you intend to make an SBR out of. That's what the ATF calls "constructive possession."
ATF has arrested people for merely possessing all the necessary parts to make an SBR before, even without any evidence that the person ever assembled those parts and actually made an SBR. Having the knowledge to do so, the ability to do so, and the intent to (one day) do so is enough.
Do these cases turn on the clause that the unassembled parts "serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length"?

An ATF ruling explicitly says just having unassembled parts is not a violation.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...red-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download
 

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Let's be honest for a second. The KAK blade is designed to not be fired from the shoulder just like the bongs at a smoke shop are designed for tobacco use. You could use it the way the manufacturer instructs you to to cover their butt with the ATF, but nobody does, and everybody, including the ATF, knows daggum well that that's how it works. Just don't use it incorrectly in front of law enforcement or post proof that you've done so on the internet.
I am being honest. The Shockwave brace isn't meant to be used as a "real" stock but there is nothing in law saying you can't put your cheek onto the buffer tube when firing your pistol. Only that the brace cannot touch your shoulder as a stock would. Which is why I Form 1'd a couple of lower receivers a few months ago. I don't want to deal with this faux brace/stock BS.
 

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I wouldn't recommend having a loose AR stock in the house (that is, a stock that's not attached to a AR pattern RIFLE at the moment) if you own an AR pistol that you intend to make an SBR out of. That's what the ATF calls "constructive possession."
ATF has arrested people for merely possessing all the necessary parts to make an SBR before, even without any evidence that the person ever assembled those parts and actually made an SBR. Having the knowledge to do so, the ability to do so, and the intent to (one day) do so is enough.
My AR pistol goes to the range with a Shockwave brace on it, not a "real" buttstock, while waiting for the Form 1s to be approved, after which I can put a "real" buttstock on it and proclaim it an SBR. In the interim, I may or may not have "real" buttstocks at home.

Under what conditions would the ATF or any other LE agency have any reasonable suspicion to charge me with constructive possession of an illegal SBR? They can't just barge into my home because they "think" I may be in possession of certain parts. Lots of us may be in possession of certain parts to make bombs out of also. Or huge, rusty knives with which to behead infidels with.

The feds need a reason to do so. 99% of us don't give them a reason by not doing stupid things.
 

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Being "on it" as in "installed on the firearm in question" isn't how the ATF or U.S. Attorney's office will view it.

https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/

In the above case, Mr. Amador was adamant...
I remember this case when it happened. Mr. Amador was stupid and paid the price. He knew what he had and he should have sold the buttstock separately from the actual pistol and at a different time. Don't give the feds a reason to screw with you. It's not that difficult a concept to comprehend.
 

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Actual 7th Circuit federal court of appeals ruling on constructive possession of SBR's -- unassembled kits were the offending weapons here, and they were only unlawful because the barrels were threaded for flash hiders that, if said flash hiders would have been welded on permanently, would have otherwise made the weapons "rifles" and out of the NFA's coverage.

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/us_v_drasen.txt

Flash hiders on the front end of a rifle-- or a stock on the back end of a pistol: It's the same issue, and courts will apply the same analysis.
Another case where the defendants gave the feds an opening and the feds took it and won. There were several issues here, not just constructive possession. They neglected to get their FFL. They neglected to get their SOT license. They were selling parts as a business, not as individuals. Some other stuff too.

Gunsmoker, you're digging too deep in this issue and making it far more complicated than it really is. Want it simple? Don't have an extra buttstock laying around the house if you have an AR type pistol in it. Happy?
 

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Don't have an extra buttstock laying around the house if you have an AR type pistol in it. Happy?
The problem with that thinking is that in practice I have a pistol AR, a SBR, and several AR rifles. So, now I can't have any spare buffer/stock parts....:screwy:
 

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The problem with that thinking is that in practice I have a pistol AR, a SBR, and several AR rifles. So, now I can't have any spare buffer/stock parts....:screwy:
I was trying to keep gunsmoker from having a panic attack as he's inclined to do from time to time. :lol:

Yes, that thinking is :screwy: but that's the way ATF rolls, we know it and we have to be smarter than them. Remember them trying to reclassify M855 ammo as armor piercing not to long ago after how many decades of use?

The bottom line is 99% of us don't do stupid things like posting pictures of questionable things on the internet, bringing questionable things out in public or saying questionable things on the internet. If there are legal uses for whatever you have in your spare parts bins then there shouldn't be any issues.
 

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Just for the sake of argument. If owning an unattached stock and an AR pistol makes me guilty of constructive possession why doesn't owning alcohol and a vehicle not make me guilty of a constructive DUI ?

The law is an ass
 
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