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If we posted a link to every Christian who killed/molested/abused someone, we'd run out of server space. But then you'd simply say that it was "the person, not the religion" (duh!).

How do you live with so much fear in your life? I mean, really. Do you even sleep?
 

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JeF4y said:
If we posted a link to every Christian who killed/molested/abused someone, we'd run out of server space. But then you'd simply say that it was "the person, not the religion" (duh!).

How do you live with so much fear in your life? I mean, really. Do you even sleep?
Given your unprovoked mini-rant and your avatar, I think you may know a thing or two about losing sleep. :screwy:
 

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JeF4y said:
If we posted a link to every Christian who killed/molested/abused someone, we'd run out of server space. But then you'd simply say that it was "the person, not the religion" (duh!).

How do you live with so much fear in your life? I mean, really. Do you even sleep?
If you refuse to attack Islam blindly there will be those that will attack you personally. It's just a thread for trolls. Ignore it.
 

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bdee said:
If you refuse to attack Islam blindly there will be those that will attack you personally. It's just a thread for trolls. Ignore it.
Lol. Yeah, I know. I just had to throw some chum in the water for the sharks.
 

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Wahhabi mosque destroyed by moderate Muslims in Indonesia, Muslims rejoice.

E: For those who haven't been paying attention, Wahhabis are the Islamic equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church, only much more violent and far more numerous. Wahhabism is the same stock of religious extremism adhered to by the Taliban and al-Qaeda, as well as being the official religion of Saudi Arabia.

I guess Muslims DO speak out against the extremists.
 

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Here's the difference between the Bible and the Koran. The Koran advocates violence whereas the Bible, under the new covenant in the New Testament, stresses love. You can't blame violence on New Testament teachings because that's not what it teaches. But you can blame Muslim violence on what the Koran teaches.
 

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Melissa5 said:
Here's the difference between the Bible and the Koran. The Koran advocates violence whereas the Bible, under the new covenant in the New Testament, stresses love. You can't blame violence on New Testament teachings because that's not what it teaches. But you can blame Muslim violence on what the Koran teaches.
You can cherry-pick quotes from either of them to make them seem to say whatever you want them to say. Any particular person's interpretation will almost always have more to do with their own principles than the original meaning of the book.

For instance, if one agreed with Old Testament rules, one would just point out Mathew ch. 5, verses 17-19, where Jesus insists "every jot and tittle" of Old testament law still applies, and will apply until Judgment Day. You could also point out that Christian governments throughout history have been quite happy to write Old Testament rules, such as those against witches, heresy, blasphemy, homosexuality, and gambling, into laws with quite strict punishments.

If one did not, one need only reference the sermon on the mount to assert otherwise. It's the same with the Quran. Al Qaeda is happy to cite Quran 2:191, 4:89, 9:5, but the peaceful Muslims cite 5:8, 2:256, 18:29, 109:6.
 

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Hack Causality said:
Any particular person's interpretation will almost always have more to do with their own principles than the original meaning of the book.
The "original meaning" (whatever that is) of the Qur'an is anything but peaceful. You do not have to "cherry pick" to make the Qur'an a violent, totalitarian book which calls for the total submission of non-Muslims.
 

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Jonas Salk said:
[quote="Hack Causality":uul4utuw]Any particular person's interpretation will almost always have more to do with their own principles than the original meaning of the book.
The "original meaning" (whatever that is) of the Qur'an is anything but peaceful. You do not have to "cherry pick" to make the Qur'an a violent, totalitarian book which calls for the total submission of non-Muslims.[/quote:uul4utuw]

I agree wholeheartedly, but that doesn't change the fact that what Muslim A thinks the Quran means is vastly different than what Muslim B thinks it means.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hack Causality said:
[quote="Jonas Salk":3994tit6][quote="Hack Causality":3994tit6]Any particular person's interpretation will almost always have more to do with their own principles than the original meaning of the book.
The "original meaning" (whatever that is) of the Qur'an is anything but peaceful. You do not have to "cherry pick" to make the Qur'an a violent, totalitarian book which calls for the total submission of non-Muslims.[/quote:3994tit6]

I agree wholeheartedly, but that doesn't change the fact that what Muslim A thinks the Quran means is vastly different than what Muslim B thinks it means.[/quote:3994tit6]

No.no.no. You are living in a dream. In countries like Somalia, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Kingdom, GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE and others, 80% of the muslim population supports actively or passively the "extremism of this peaceful religion".

How many f...ing Christians support Christian violence done, for example, like the one (i consider it verbal violence) done by that stupid church demonstrating against our fallen soldier?
 

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kestak said:
Hack Causality said:
[quote="Jonas Salk":8qf9xyk1][quote="Hack Causality":8qf9xyk1]Any particular person's interpretation will almost always have more to do with their own principles than the original meaning of the book.
The "original meaning" (whatever that is) of the Qur'an is anything but peaceful. You do not have to "cherry pick" to make the Qur'an a violent, totalitarian book which calls for the total submission of non-Muslims.
I agree wholeheartedly, but that doesn't change the fact that what Muslim A thinks the Quran means is vastly different than what Muslim B thinks it means.[/quote:8qf9xyk1]

No.no.no. You are living in a dream. In countries like Somalia, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Kingdom, GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE and others, 80% of the muslim population supports actively or passively the "extremism of this peaceful religion".

How many f...ing Christians support Christian violence done, for example, like the one (i consider it verbal violence) done by that stupid church demonstrating against our fallen soldier?[/quote:8qf9xyk1]

I'm not talking about any group, or any average, just two hypothetical individuals, and not necessarily about the issue of violence, but of any random aspect of Islamic doctrine. I would agree with you in the statement that the majority of Muslims believe that, at best, Islamic violence "isn't my problem, and the victims probably deserved it anyway."

You, my friend, have a habit of looking for an argument where one doesn't exist.
 

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In countries like Somalia, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Kingdom, GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE and others, 80% of the muslim population supports actively or passively the "extremism of this peaceful religion".
Could you link any study or poll to support your claim of 80%?
 

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bdee said:
In countries like Somalia, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Kingdom, GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE and others, 80% of the muslim population supports actively or passively the "extremism of this peaceful religion".
Could you link any study or poll to support your claim of 80%?
He probably can't, but unfortunately I can. It isn't eighty percent, and I would guess that the numbers for Western countries are probably lower, but the statistics are still despicable.

http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=C5avmNU7
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I can

http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html

Read through the different hyperlinks. You will find worse numbers than the one I did.

Just if you are too lazy to read:
Survey of Muslim world, Feb 2009 has all sorts of horrible stats:
76 percent of Pakistanis want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
76 percent of Moroccans want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
90 percent of Palestinians support killing American troops in Iraq. And yet America is giving the Palestinians $1 billion in aid!
83 percent of Egyptians support killing American troops in Iraq. And yet America gives Egypt $2 billion in aid every year!
68 percent of Moroccans support killing American troops in Iraq.
40 percent in Turkey support killing American troops in Iraq. And yet America is pushing for its "ally" Turkey to be let into the EU.
83 percent of Egyptians support killing American troops in Afghanistan.
61 percent of Moroccans support killing American troops in Afghanistan.
78 percent of Palestinians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.
69 percent of Egyptians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.
53 percent of Moroccans have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.
51 percent of Pakistanis have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.
 

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It's obvious that with this poll taken eight years ago, just after the 9/11 attacks, the Bali bombings, and the build up of rhetoric before the invasion and occupation of Iraq, these numbers represent a worrying figure.

Not surprisingly, Lebanon was the highest. Recent memories show Muslims to be in a very vulnerable state. They have one of the highest percentages of Palestinian refugees, they have a very high percentage of migrant workers, and recent publicity in Lebanon showed how Christian militias (with the support of the the Israeli army) massacred entire Muslim refugee camps. It is also a time of growing disclosure that these militias, like in Kosovo, used rape as a weapon against the Muslim population.
I suggest you watch the following episode:

It is 50 minutes, but it is well worth seeing (it is subtitled into English). It is produced by al-Jazeera, so there may be some bias in the series against the Shi'a Druze militias, but pertinent to this discussion is that is was released in July of 2002, and this poll was conducted just months afterward. Few if any can deny the power of images to shape public opinion.

The second part of note is that the only other Middle Eastern nation to show significant yes percentages is in Jordan, which is the nation with the highest percentage of Palestinian refugees.

The thing is that we need to seriously look at the idea of suicide bombings. This is a relatively new phenomenon.
Unfortunately, there are some who have co-opted the name of religion for what is essentially a political issue.

It is similar to the when Lincoln used slavery as a motivating tool, to flag up dwindling support for the war. Making the war about slavery, put Britain and France in the position of supporting slavery if they were to recognize the Confederate states and thus reopen trade for their much need cotton or risk losing their textile industries. (Britain then made the decision to colonize Egypt and grow cotton on the Nile Delta.) But the germane point is that folks like bin Laden are essentially political actors attempting to tie their objectives to Islam so that those who are uneducated will be unable to differentiate between being against God and being against groups like al-Qaeda.

The other thing that America really needs to be careful of is being manipulated by political actors in the region. There are a number of instances in which folks over there identify their own political rivals as supporters of terrorism. Far too often, America has blindly acted on those reports and eliminated the local rival. The most famous of these is when Clinton bombed an aspirin factory with cruise missiles in 2000. It turned out the report came from a business rival. that they were making bombs in this factory. In the region, the publicity came out simply that America had sent cruise missiles to destroy a medical facility. In Yemen, the Salih government consistently claims that rivals to his leadership are supporters of al-Qaeda. The Saudi government agrees to use drones (controlled by the USAF) to eliminate entire villages. The locals get the news that America is trying to wipe them out.

The situation is far more complex than the homogeneous 'Muslim terrorist' label would imply.

My solution is that we pull all troops, and financial aid to the area. For those interested, we supply $3.5B of direct military aid to Israel. We are send $850M annually to the PA for humanitarian aid. We have also known for years that the PA is seizing this aid, selling it to their own people and using the money for arming themselves. Thus we are spending $4.35B every year so that this fight can continue. In a time of $1.3T deficit, we can afford to keep this fight going. We can build nations in Afghanistan and Iraq. We can keep the Saud family in power in Saudi Arabia. We have since Ronald Reagan financially supported the spread of Wahhabism. All this needs to stop.

And as for 80%, we all know that he pulled that number out of thin air to support his hatred of all Muslims. Seemingly, he has the need to justify his hatred with made up figures.
 

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kestak said:
I can

http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html

Read through the different hyperlinks. You will find worse numbers than the one I did.
So you are quoting Mark Humphrys an anti-Muslim blogger as your evidence????

But that's ok, let's look at your figures.
1. Support shari'a a Koranic based system of law does not indicate a support for terrorism (isn't it odd that exactly %76 support it?)
2. Killing American soldiers on a battlefield is not terrorism, it's called war.
3. These percentage include figures for Egypt. If you knew Egypt you'd know that Egyptian law prohibits polls of this nature. (anything to do with terrorism, bin Laden, the Muslim Brotherhood.)

So these figures don't support your thesis, and two by including Egypt, it makes them all suspect as simply made up.
 

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:twisted: Islam is truly a religion of love. :twisted:

"Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.†Koran 2:191

“Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.†Koran 9:123
...
“When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them.†Koran 9:5

“Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.†Koran 3:85

“The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.†Koran 9:30

“Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam†Koran 5:33

“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.†Koran 22:19

“The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.†Koran 8:65

“Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.†Koran 3:28

“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.†Koran 8:12

“Muslims must muster all weapons to terrrize the infidels.†Koran 8:60
 
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