Question for LEOs Regarding BG with Knife

Discussion in 'Firearm Related' started by asbrand, Oct 11, 2007.

  1. asbrand

    asbrand Active Member

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    Let me preface this with: I belong to an international gaming community, but we have a forum similar to this, and one of the topics that often comes up are Gun Rights / Ownership.

    Almost all of the Europeans view us as Gung Ho Cowboys and flatly refuse to ever think there's a legitimate reason for an individual to own a gun.

    Recently, one of them was talking about a burglary he had while he was home. He ended up chasing the perp down the street, but nothing came of it. He made a flippant remark that the BG wasn't armed, and if he had been, it would have "only been a knife".

    I mentioned that most of the cops I've ever talked with have said they'd rather run into a BG with a gun than a knife...since the "bulletproof vests" don't stop knives.

    This individual told me those cops are full of BS.

    So...I figured I'd ask the LEOs here.

    Which do you fear more? A badguy armed with a handgun or a sharp knife, within 15' of you? Why?

    Thanks for your time!
     
  2. VolGrad

    VolGrad Tactical Statistician

    Not a LEO, but I had a friend tell me once he preferred a GSW to a knife wound. He had both in Vietnam. Said the GSW was cleaner in that the bullet cauterized (sic?) the wound when it went in. Also said his knife wound was much more painful and took longer to heal.

    Forgive me for this digression: This man was a very close family friend growing up, sort of a mentor to me. He was also my Sunday school teacher and RA leader. He was a Sgt. Maj. in the TN Army National Guard. He served again in Iraq. He survived a year in combat but came home safe only to die of a heart attack within 6 months. He was and always will be a hero to me. I know 100% that God welcomed this hero with open arms and that he is at peace.
     

  3. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    I think the GSW would be better as well. While I don't have any personal experience with either, I think a GSW would be easier to heal from. Looking at that thread from Defensive Carry (or was it ARFCOM?) about the guy that shot himself in the leg seems to jive well with this line of thinking.
     
  4. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    NOT L.E.O.

    I'm not LEO, but I've trained with them, and I read a lot of the same stuff they read when it comes to weapons and tactics.

    Soft body armor isn't guaranteed to stop a knife threat, and certain kinds of weapons (icepick, narrow-bladed knife with a really sharp point) can stab through it, but generally it gives a LOT of protection from edged weapons. Blunt-impact weapons, too, because it spreads the force out over a larger surface area of your body. I have never slashed my own vest with a knife, but I'll bet that no single pass with any kind of blade would cut through it. Partway through the many layers, yeah, but not all the way.

    But who cares? Your main question was "can you shoot a knife-wielding perp who's close to you?" The answer is clearly yes. Knifes are deadly weapons, period.

    Even if the bulleproof vest DID give 100% protection against knives, does the vest cover your face or throat? No. Does it cover your lower belly? No. How about your genitals, or thighs? Would you like a perp to reach down and slash your thigh down to the bone and sever your femoral artery? How would that work out for you?
     
  5. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I do not know which I would "prefer" :roll: , but a reasonably strong man can definitely punch a knife through the typical soft body armor worn on the street. No problem.
     
  6. viper32cm

    viper32cm New Member

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    Tell you're European friends to query a few veteran British bobbies about a) how they had to get donated bullet proof vests from the US because too many bobbies were dieing from gunshot wounds and b) they had to get special knife vests because bullet proof vests cannot stop a knife attack.

    It's all about physics.

    Any time I hear "it's just a knife" I'd really like to kick the :censored: out of that person.
     
  7. kkennett

    kkennett New Member

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    Tough question. It really depends on the bullet, the knife, and the location. Soft body armor has various classes, but none works on rifle rounds. Handgun rounds are one thing, but your basic frangible 30-06 to the thorax is going to be a bummer of the highest order. For a knife, once you penetrate the soft body armor, it's totally useless. If a bullet goes through, the energy will at least be attenuated; whereas, the knife is not an energy transfer device. For muscle tissue and solid organs, take the knife wound as preferable, for hollow organs, take the GSW.
     
  8. foshizzle

    foshizzle New Member

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    If guns are not allowed in the country you mention it's a moot point.

    They are banned, therefore you can't use them in an argument. People can't have them. Duh. :roll:
     
  9. Firearmz

    Firearmz New Member

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    I am a LE trainer and both can kill you, knife or gun. As for the soft body armor we wear it is a tightly woven fabric called kevlar, and really sharp pointed object such as a good knife, ice pick, or arrow can penetrate the vest. I admit the pointed object will have to be sturdy to support the force but yes it will penetrate. If someone disagrees I have a spare vest put it on and I just happen to have an ice pick handy. :)


    Wounds, man both are terrible and I will not chose one over the other. In America with modern medicine and trauma care as it is about 80% of all hand gun wounds are not life ending. Stabs tend to do about the same as bullets, make deep holes that can puncture organs and cause death. Slashes are actually more psychological than physiological unless a major artery is cut. Any of them CAN be deadly.

    The only advantage that a gun has over a knife is range. On the other hand the knife never runs out of ability to stab and cut.

    I think I had rather just have the option to shoot either one of them, several times, maybe many times.

    I carry a gun and a small fixed blade knife, if we get into a physical fight and I feel the need to use a potentially life ending weapon while we are wrapped up, I am going for the blade. You won't see it coming and you will be cut, stabbed, slashed and then maybe shot.

    If I have distance on my side I will shoot you. Stabbing and cuts tend to get us all messy too.
     
  10. ptsmith24

    ptsmith24 New Member

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    8) :Nunchaku: :bowdown:
     
  11. ber950

    ber950 Active Member

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    :ninja:
     
  12. Firearmz

    Firearmz New Member

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  13. VolGrad

    VolGrad Tactical Statistician

    OK, I'll admit it - I am stupid. Exactly what does "in the appendix carry" mean? Where are you talking about wearing it?
     
  14. Firearmz

    Firearmz New Member

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    You wear it in the appendix position ina hard sheath, the knife is small. I will start a new thread and pictures.
     
  15. VolGrad

    VolGrad Tactical Statistician

    Thanks. It is the "appendix position" which I do not understand.
     
  16. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I was hoping it did not mean he stabbed himself in the appendix just so he will have it if he needs it. :D

    I carry a .357 magnum in the same location.
     
  17. ptsmith24

    ptsmith24 New Member

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    :lol:
     
  18. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    The appendix position is where your appendix is: about 1:30 on your beltline.

    Also, I'd just like to point out that a Clinch Pick is most certainly a knife designed for offense or defense.
     
  19. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Stab Thru Class 2A Kevlar?

    Okay, I have a vest and I want to find the answer to this question? Will my Point Blank kevlar vest, Class 2A, without the steel trauma plate, defeat a stab from a knife swung by a reasonably strong man.

    What kind of knife should we use? Not an odd or unusual weapon, but one that is likely to been encountered on the street in the hands of a criminal. Icepick? No, I agree that would go through. Butterfly knife? Lock-back? Fixed-blade hunting knife? Kitchen knife designed for cutting meat? Steak knife? Military style KBar type knife (they're common enough, with cheap Chinese made copies being sold at any sportings good store or Army/Navy shop).

    How should the vest be hung or affixed or held in place for the stabbing? It won't be on a person's body, that's for sure. I suggest a big bag of mulch, sawdust, or potting soil. Heavy, but only somewhat flexible.

    In the event the knife does not penetrate, how will we keep the stabber's fingers from sliding down the handle over the blade? Some knives have a guard, but others don't.

    Anybody wanna help with this test?
     
  20. Firearmz

    Firearmz New Member

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    Or you can wear it in the same position on the off side (cross draw if you will).