point shooting

Discussion in 'Training' started by gunsmoker, Aug 6, 2017.

  1. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    The other day I did some backyard practice with a .177 air pistol (slow and accurate shooting), and on a whim I decided to try one shot at a 6" round balloon HIP SHOOTING from 10 yards.

    Popped it on the first try.

    Set up another at 20 yards / 60 feet. Blew that one up a bit fuller, maybe 8" diameter.

    Nicked it and made it move!

    This is holding the gun down at belly button level, not chest level.

    I do quite a bit of practice point-shooting through dry firing with my S&W .38 snubby with laser grips, BUT that gun is so much smaller than the big 5" barreled pellet pistol I was using now, I didn't think the skills would transfer over.

    Who else practices point shooting, without using any sights?


    P.S. Pic is not me, nor did I take it. It's just some random internet photo showing about how I held my gun.
     

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  2. zetor

    zetor Gaston beat up John

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    I tried it a few times. Not something I ever practiced. Never could hit anything.
    Bill Jordan shows how it's done.
    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOeEAY3nNKk[/ame]
     

  3. Feral

    Feral Active Member

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    I have on occasion when shooting somewhere that I can do it safely. I was surprisingly accurate.
     
  4. rjinga

    rjinga Member

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    What Feral said.
     
  5. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    Same. Definitely a shooting style to practice considering the likely self-defense shooting scenarios that one might find themselves in. Most scenarios will have your target easily within point-shooting distance. Point shooting and C.A.R. make solid additions to any shooting practice.
     
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  6. Savannah Dan

    Savannah Dan Cross-drawer

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    I can point shoot well with my M57. Not well at all with the others.
     
  7. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Did you fan the hammer with your left hand?
     
  8. ken grant

    ken grant New Member

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    I do it all the time but not just from the hip . I start at the hip and then move up to mid-chest , shoulder level ,chin level , mouth level and finish at nose level . All depending on distance and size of target .
    My favorite drill is to scatter fired shot shells on the berm , low, high , left and right. Draw and point shoot at them from the different levels I use above at about 3 to 8 yards.
    Yes I do pick them up afterwards and save them for the next time .
    I hit a few , make a few move and miss a lot but always close enough to defend myself against them .
    I use an Air Soft copies of my pistols at home in the back yard and do the same drills but mostly with tennis balls .
    At the range I mostly use .22 LR Conversion Kits for my pistols ( have 1 or 2 for every pistol I own) and sometimes the full caliber to keep being used to the louder noise and more recoil .
    I mostly fire single shots at each draw but do add in double taps randomly .
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  9. GeorgeShootaire

    GeorgeShootaire Site Supporter

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    Yeah that's not PS. That's shooting from the hip. A little different...
     
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  10. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Well, either way it does not involve using the sights at all, not even to get a "flash sight picture" or an imperfect sight picture.

    Right now, my brother is shopping for a small pocket pistol in semi-auto, probably .380 caliber. He's got some experience with .38 and .22 snubby revolvers, .32 acp pocket pistols, and NAA mini-revolvers.

    He's trying to decide between a Seecamp (has no sights-- the top of the slide is just smooth, bare, stainless steel) and a Kahr (has sights, normal sights for any modern semi-auto defensive pistol).

    I think HE would be better off without sights. Why? Because if he has sights in front of his face, he ALWAYS aims them. He can't bring himself to disregard the sights and just shoot by pointing. Nor will he invest the time and money and all the range trips necessary to be fast at acquiring the sights. So, therefore, he's PAINFULLY SLOW in all his shooting.
    I think if he ever did try rapid fire shooting, let's say 5 shots in 2.5 seconds (which isn't really all that fast), he'd be jerking the trigger like a gorilla and getting a "group" the size of a barn door.

    Sights are good for a lot of guns, for a lot of gun owners. Not for him with a small pocket pistol. Sights are a clear liability to him and an impediment to being the first in that gunfight to put rounds into one's adversary.

    http://www.pointshooting.com/1acamp.htm
     
  11. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    We went to the range today.
    The fastest my brother wanted to shoot was 1 shot every 3 seconds.

    But, he DID try hip-shooting at that pace, at 3 yards, and got 5 out of 7 hits in a 10" group, center of mass on the target.
    One shot was a foot too low and 1 was a foot too high.

    I did the same shooting at 1 shot per second and got 6 out of 7 in a group the size of a tennis ball. The first shot was the flyer about 4" low-left.
     
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  12. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    5705D308-5E9F-4B6F-BDDA-96F8DCF4833D.jpeg I took the pellet pistol out in the yard for a little point shooting practice. And when I say "point shooting" I am not talking about some weird type of grip for you pull the trigger with your middle finger and your index finger lies along the gun's frame in alignment with the barrel. I'm talking about a standard firing grip on a handgun --one handed or two handed.


    FROM a MEASURED 7 yards or 21 Feet, firing very rapidly, here is my result from shooting 10 shots with one hand followed by 10 shots with both hands. The weapon never came above chest level and I never attempted to align the sights either with each other or with the target.

    I just glanced across the entire top of the gun in my peripheral vision and focused on the target. Sometimes I could see the pellet strike, and sometimes I couldn't.

    This is combat-style point shooting or instinctive shooting. It is very fast and does not require the use of sights; it doesn't require even having sights on the gun! If you can point a water hose, if you can point your finger, if you can point a broomstick, you can point a pistol to this level of accuracy.
     
  13. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    4337530E-F7D1-412F-9CB1-9ED7626F46FD.jpeg Then I tried 20 rounds of what I will call "glancing through the sights." No sight alignment in the traditional use of that term.

    (10 shots dominant hand only.
    Then 10 shots with both hands.)

    Others might call it a "flash sight picture" but I don't think it should be called any sort of "sight picture" because my front post was not inside the rear notch. Instead, the front blade was almost always sticking up well above the entire body of the rear sight, and I put both of them a little bit below center of mass on this target.

    The gun was raised to the same level as my eyes. I'd pull the trigger fast --not a gentle squeeze but a very fast firm pull that definitely jerked the gun a little bit. I shot as if I were under attack and shooting to save my life. Remember, this is only from 7 yards away. (Which is still a lot farther than the average civilian self defense gun use.)

    The red circles are the new hits, done with the sights in front of my eyes and always seeing the front side but almost never getting the front sight into the notch of the rear sight.
     
  14. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    P.S. I don't use this pellet pistol often. I've only owned it for two years; I've never had anything like it before. I've probably only fired 100 rounds through it in the last year and a half, & none has been point shooting.

    All of the shooting I've done in the last year and a half with this gun has been aimed fire using sight alignment --even if it is imperfect alignment due to self-imposed time constraints.
     
  15. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    BA7B512C-8BE7-4B68-8E7A-D29D2C5198F8.jpeg
    Target photographed partway thru the testing.
    ------
    Today I did a few strings of hip shooting, and then shoulder-level point shooting, then "flash sight picture" shooting, and finally "aimed with sights" shooting.

    Did this in the garage from 5 yards and 10 yards, with BB and pellet pistols.

    The target was another police qualification target; white and green.


    Summary of results:

    --------

    Hip shooting was the fastest.
    About 0.5 second to raise gun from low ready to my gut level, point it roughly with only a blurry image of the top of the gun barrel and slide at the very bottom of my peripheral vision, and pull the trigger.

    Score for 10 shots was 60 out of 100. Two were misses--zero points each for those.

    -----
    Shoulder-level point shooting was second fastest, at about 0.6 or 0.7 second for most of these single shots.

    I made no attempt to line up the sights. My only concern was that I could see there was a front sight and there was a rear sight, and they were both wobbling around somewhere on the target's torso when I pulled the trigger.

    Accuracy was better-- 70/ 100 points. The group was tighter, but was off-center to the low-left direction. Since I couldn't see the BB holes appearing in the paper under the dim lighting conditions I didn't know what group was like until I fired all 10 shots and pulled the target down for scoring.

    -----------

    AIMED SHOOTING - 5 yards:

    This was what I would call shooting with a "flash sight picture." I had to find both the front and the rear sights and put the front sight somewhere approximately in (or slightly above) the notch of the rear sight.

    SPEED: Most shots were 0.8 seconds. A few 0.7's, and a few 0.88 or .89.

    ACCURACY: 95% No zeros.
    A good bunch of 10-point hits and a single 5-point hit.

    -------------

    WELL-AIMED SHOOTING:

    I moved back to 10 yards for this, shot 2 handed from behind a barricade. DA only, semi-auto CO2 powered .177 pellet gun.

    Used the sights and tried to get pretty good sight alignment within a short time frame.

    SPEED-- Took 6 or 7 seconds to fire all 8 rounds that gun held. Call it average of about 0.83 of a second per shot.

    ACCURACY: 100%, A very tight group dead center where it should be. Not a single shot was even within a couple of inches of being out of the 10 point zone.

    --------

    CONCLUSION I DRAW FROM THIS:

    If you think being a quarter-second to a half-second slower won't matter, then by all means use your sights, because there's a dramatic improvement in accuracy!
    But if things are going down in a way where 0.3 or 0.4 of a second delay could get you killed, then shooting instinctively by pointing your gun without using the sights gets you faster shots, and nearly all of them can still be in the adversary's chest.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  16. blind_shake

    blind_shake Well-Known Member

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    Not a comment on point shooting which I do. Somwthing everyone needs to learn, especially on their EDC carry gun.

    But I am picking up a pellet trainer pistol that matches my SIG. So that I can do some practice that dry firing doesnt replicate.
     
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