Opinion on the draft from someone who has to face it

Discussion in 'Off-topic' started by tace, Aug 13, 2007.

  1. tace

    tace New Member

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    All 18 year old Turkish males have to serve out 18 months in the Turkish Army. If you are going to college they will delay your service until you graduate and then you will serve as an officer. If you happen to live and work outside the country they will do their damnest to make your life a bit more difficult coming and going. I haven't lived there since I was 15 but it still is a pain in my :censored:

    Turks have a proud tradition of military service. They have been fighting wars ever since they have known themselves. Everyone serves, so its something all men share in common. Yet, the Army's goal is to have a "professional army" like US, not a draft one. Even though they have millions of bodies to put at the line at any time, that will have a lot of logistical and other issues.

    My real brother, who was kind of a jock growing up, very athletic and never got sick, he served as a private even though he had a college degree, so they halved his time to 9 months. They do this because there are too many to qualify as officers. Anyway, he spent over a month in the hospital and the rest of the time he was questioning everything he has ever learned. This is even with my family pulling strings to have him stationed at some of the most posh places he could have served. Not the Iraq, Iran, Syria border where he would have been shot at everyday.

    Most of my childhood friends had one word for me "avoid it at all costs, not worth your time or your life".

    So, in a country surrounded by enemies and a proud warrior tradition, forced military service causes this much trauma for young men, what do you think will happen to American kids forced to fight oil wars thousands of miles away from home?

    Honestly, if it comes up as an election issue I will vote against it.
     

  2. Firearmz

    Firearmz New Member

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    As I said in a earlier post I do not like the idea of a draft and as long as we have a volunteer professional force we should no thave one. Then again I considered it a honor to join and serve. Sometimes the conditions and the enviroment really sucked, but sometimes civilian life does too.

    I think every young American should serve a short tour, before going to college. I also if I were president (I only play one in my mind) I would have alternative roles for young Americans to serve not just in the military.
     
  3. Bulldawg182

    Bulldawg182 Active Member

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    First, and with the hope of not starting a civil war of our own here on the forum, I take issue with the description of "oil wars". While one would have to be an idiot to think that oil does not factor into our decisions and role in the middle east, I take exception to this description. There has never been a war between any nations which did not contain a "hard asset" prize of some sort to the victor. This one is no different.

    As the father of two prime age sons, my entire reason for being is to do everything I can to insure they're safe and happy existence into their ripe old ages. That being said, they are Americans and as American young men have done for centuries in every war our country has been involved with, if called upon they will serve. There's no doubt that today's generation is different in many ways to the generations that came before it and this trend has not changed for hundreds of years. Still, despite the advent of the electronic press and the constant barrage of negativism, this generation will do no differently than those that have come before it or those that will follow.
     
  4. Mike from Philly

    Mike from Philly New Member

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    There is no way a conscript military will work today. The military of today is not about warm bodies pulling triggers , it is about minds. Minds that can deploy technology. Minds that can understand and work in different cultures. Minds that are motivated and forward thinking. Our military is not about conquest but liberation.

    The folks in todays' military are very intelligent with tremendous credenitals and achievements. Members of today's military are heads and shoulders above what is in corporate America, and certainly above general society.

    Look at what the military does ....

    1) They go half way around the world and defeat one of the top armys at a causuality level foran entire war below a number of our early battles.

    2) Guys in Houston flying UAVs in Iraq

    3) Rebuilding a nation after a billion years of dictatorship and socialism

    My company can't even bill the customer correctly.

    Conscription will destroy the military .... that is why Hillary and Ragle are for it.
     
  5. Ashe

    Ashe New Member

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    As a member of the armed forces I can tell you what the military thinks about the whole draft thing.

    Everytime this subject comes up we wonder who the retard who thaught this may be a good idea is. We are an all volunteer force. Well trained and well motivated, With a small exception. There is a percentage, a small percentage, that joined the armed forces for the wrong reasons, and we see them very quickly, the ones who do not understand why we have discipline, why we require a chain of command, the ones who do not fit in and do not want to be there. We do not want them there either.
    The enlisted leadership, of which I am a part, understand that we spend 80% of our time on 10% of the people. People who seem incapable of adapting to the structure of the military, people who think that race, creed, sex, or some other factor is a valid reason for them to get some sort of special treatment. We do not want these folks, and we do our best to send them home as soon as possible, but there is always another one coming in to replace the last one.

    And this is for an all volunteer force. We dread the day when the people who really do not want to be there and never did show up. or to put it another way.
    If you think we cannot perform the job at hand with the people who want to do the job, how do you think we can get it done with people who don't?
     
  6. tace

    tace New Member

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    That's an excellent point. The US Military of today is so mighty not only because it is well armed and modern but also because the soldiers are professionals who WANT to be there.

    Mind you, if it really was a direct threat to this country I am sure many more thousands of American youngsters would volunteer in a heart beat to serve their country. If a credible and dire need arose for more warm bodies, I highly doubt draft would even be necessary.
     
  7. Macktee

    Macktee New Member

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    I also faced the draft and served in the army in the mid-60s, just as Viet Nam was heating up. Another unwinable war where we threw some of our best and bravest into the grinder because our government's leadership didn't know how, or didn't want, to get us out of there!

    Draftees are usually not the most motivated of troops... But, in those days, the army had many years of practice motivating people of that disposition. If it was the case of an individual vs. the system, a system that hadn't changed significantly since the Roman Legions, bet on the system every damn time!!!

    I saw some total slugs turn into decent troops. Some of them needed more motivation than others, but just about all of them eventually got with the program. I also saw some guys who were really good soldiers who truly got the job done. Some were draftees, most were Regular Army (volunteers) who wanted to serve, but several I knew were RAs who were there only because the judge gave them a choice of joining the military or going to jail...

    I believe each and every young American should serve in some capacity, probably for a year starting when they turn 18. It could be in the military or the Peace Corp or going to school and learning how to read, write and obey the rules of society.

    No one should get a pass, other than the severely handicapped. At the end of that year, those who earned the right, could stay in. Those who hadn't learned to play nicely with others would stay in...

    Things would be different! If only I were running this place.....







    :wink:
     
  8. Mobster989

    Mobster989 New Member

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    I think every young man and young woman needs to learn discipline and have a sense of belonging. Some people need the military to get those things, some people don't. I'm not in favor of forcing anyone against their will to serve in the military. Aren't we beyond that already? If our society cannot survive on volunteers then it doesn't need to exist any longer. That being said, there is nothing wrong with the government ASKING young men and young women to serve in times of war.

    My biggest problem with the military is the leadership and the direction they are taking the USAF. For some reason they are trying to make the air force all hooah like the army. They are trying to make us mindless drones or something. No offense to the army but the air force is more technical and needs brighter people. Not to say there aren't any jobs in the army that need smart soldiers, just that the air force has more of those jobs. The air force is not full of soldiers. It's full of airmen. The majority of whom don't need to be in peak physical condition to fight on the ground. I have not once seen combat, hell I haven't even seen a weapon drawn on another person in a non-exercise situation. We are not soldiers, we're airmen. I do not see the point in stressing all this physical readiness if it isn't going to be put to use.

    It's not only that but other things. I've seen waaay too much waste in the military. It's not like you can report it either, because almost every process has waste to it. And not only that but the way the system is set up creates waste. Here's an example. Every commander gets a budget at the beginning of the year. They buy everything from pencils to routers with that money. Well at the end of the year if there is any money left over it is given back to congress and the commander gets a smaller budget next year. The problem with that is that no commander wants a smaller budget, especially when one piece of equipment costs millions of dollars. So at the end of the year there is a hurry to spend all the surplus of money. I personally witnessed the installation of 10 brand new monitors in our workshop just because they had to spend the money, even though our monitors were only a few months old and worked fine.

    Negate the direction and the waste and I still have a problem because of the deployments. I'm only out here for 4 months but those army cats are here for 1.25 years. Whether people want to admit it or not that messes with family life, there are a lot of divorces because of these deployments. Some spouses can't keep their pants on or other issues develop as a result of the deployments. And it's not like you're going to do one tour, we've got soldiers who are on their 2nd/3rd tours.

    There are other reasons I don't like the military and I'm getting out. All that being said if someone likes the military then by all means don't let me stop them, it just isn't for me. And I am not for forcing anyone else to join. 100 highly motivated soldiers are better than 1,000 draftees.
     
  9. M249

    M249 New Member

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    Mindless drones? Heh, heh... you haven't hung around 11B's much have ya? :p
     
  10. GeorgiaGlocker

    GeorgiaGlocker Romans 1:16

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    When I turned 18, I had to register for the draft. I went to the post office and filled out the required paper work. A few weeks later I received my draft card in the mail with a A1 or 1A (I can't remember exactly which one it was now) status. Inotherwords, I was going if I was called.

    If something doesn't happen soon, I believe a draft will be reinstated. Our troops are spread way too thin. If we had to respond to another situation in another part of the world to protect our security, could we do it effectively? I doubt it. Althought the pentagon never likes to say the "D" word, in all likelyhood it has already been worked out how it will be reinstated.
     
  11. Firearmz

    Firearmz New Member

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    11B's of today are very educated and advanced fighting men. If you think they still just march and dig fighting positions you are out of touch.
     
  12. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    Short of Russians falling from the sky, this is not going to happen.

    Just about every officer with stars on his shoulders has said they are absolutely opposed to a draft. It just isn't going to happen.
     
  13. GeorgiaGlocker

    GeorgiaGlocker Romans 1:16

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    Do you honestly think that stars will admit that a draft is in the works??
     
  14. Firearmz

    Firearmz New Member

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    They don't have to draft me, one call, thats all!!!
     
  15. Ashe

    Ashe New Member

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    It doesn't matter what you think stars and bars want. Why is it that civilians think that Senior Officers are like politicians?
    An officer is not going to lie about how he feels about this issue. He has no reason to and even the officers I've met that had their heads up their 3rd point of contact won't lie to you.


    Every single officer in the military was trained and nurtured by a member of the Senior Enlisted when they were a junior officer.

    If a Chief, or Master Sargent, tells an Officer "Sir, that will not work, it's a Bad Idea." then usually that officer, if he's a good officer, listens.
     
  16. Firearmz

    Firearmz New Member

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    They do lie and they are political. Having retired after 20 years of service and being a Snior NCO I have seen it. Their OER is more important than a good decision that may be unpopular. One bad OER and they understand thewir career is basically over.
     
  17. slabertooch

    slabertooch New Member

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    I would hesitate to say that they are not "politicians". Senior staff officers are appointed by the President, and work for him. When I was in the Marines, the general consensus was that the Pentagon was filled with a bunch of "yes men" who would not rock the boat, which was emphasized by the post-invasion "planning" of Iraq. Its appears to be a matter of "I don't think it will work, but we'll make it work, YES SIR!" (the problem with having appointed civilians running the military)

    What we don't appear to have is generals who will say "No sir, thats not a good idea". Even Generals have careers that they worry about, as well as junior officers. We would hear all the time about an officer who stood up to a superior officer when the senior officer had a "good idea". The next phrase out of that Marine's mouth was "His career is ruined"

    The officer ranks is very political, not neccesarily tied to politics, but if you rock the boat as a junior officer, don't expect to be at the Pentagon or Quantico in the future. Those senior officers have a tendacy to want their way, regardless of cost. If you don't believe me, read Generation Kill by Evan Wright , or One Bullet Away, the Making of a Marine Officer by Nathaniel Fick. Read about Captain America and other officers in both of those books and you will see what our enlisted troops have to deal with. To be fair there are a lot of officers that do the right thing and will stand up to the "Stupidity of Command", but most are just concerned with their careers and retiring.

    There is a culture of stagnancy in the officer ranks, occasionally you have an officer who will speak his mind, but they are few and far between. Too many officers who think "this is BS" but say "Yes sir, we will make it happen".
    :rant:
     
  18. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired Active Member

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    Where is Chesty Puller when we need him?! Or at least another Al Gray.
     
  19. slabertooch

    slabertooch New Member

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    +2

    A little background on Commandant Grey, his official portrait was not in his service uniform, he wore his cammies.
    [​IMG]

    And good ole Chesty (Good Night wherever you are!)
    [​IMG]