Ohio: Papers Please

Discussion in 'Off-topic' started by Rammstein, Sep 3, 2007.

  1. merlock

    merlock Active Member

    2,515
    0
    36
    Another example of " I can interpret the law any way I see fit" mentality of a lot of LEO's. :evil: :banghead:
    Good find, Ramm!
     

  2. AV8R

    AV8R Banned

    6,624
    2
    0
    WTF. I mean, seriously, WTF?
     
  3. AV8R

    AV8R Banned

    6,624
    2
    0
    If it is determined that the arrest was bad, can this guy recoup his attorney's fees and the $300 it took to bail him out?
     
  4. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

    27,497
    660
    113
    I've Wanted To

    I've wanted to walk right past the "security" or "exit greeter" who is looking in bags and checking receipts at the store's exit before. Like this guy, I think I have a right of privacy and a right to leave their store with MY possessions, that I have just bought and paid for, without any interference from them. Unless they have probable cause to think that I've shoplifted something, they had better not try to detain me or search me over my objection.

    But on the other hand, if I took that hard line, even if they knew the law and were forced to let me go on my way, they could probably ban me from the property. Maybe ALL stores of that same chain, nationwide. Maybe just all the ones in Georgia. I don't know. But rather than get a criminal trespass warning that would prevent me from shopping at WallyWorld ever again, I have always submitted to the random searches of my belongings and demands to produce my papers.
     
  5. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    Indeed. There's an interesting :censored: storm going on about this at Ars.

    AV8R, Don't you get your bail back when you show up in court? Isn't it just collateral?

    gunsmoker, if Walmart would ban me from all of their stores for not showing my papers, that's fine by me. I can and would prefer to shop elsewhere. So would thousands of other people that read my story.
     
  6. ptsmith24

    ptsmith24 New Member

    8,809
    0
    0
    Good read, ramm.
     
  7. wsweeks2

    wsweeks2 New Member

    6,306
    0
    0
    Nice to know the Gestapo exists in Ohio as well.

    :roll:
     
  8. VolGrad

    VolGrad Tactical Statistician

    Gestapo this, Gestapo that. I guess I don't really see the big deal.

    Yes, it is annoying to show your receipt when you have clearly just exited the cashier's aisle. I agree this shows some hostility toward loyal customers on the part of the store. This is a stupid policy and should be taken up at the corporate level, not in court. This guy admitted that he "knew what he was doing" and had been through the same thing at at least 3 other stores. Had he not intended to challenge the system in this way he would have simply had his dad drive away and not stopped to talk to the manager. He could have simply driven away and the whole thing would have been over with.

    I do think the store employees did go too far. He should not have been detained by them if they had no reason to believe he had shoplifted. The "victim" in this case SHOULD press this issue in court and file charges if he feels they wronged him. I think this would probably amount to false imprisonment.

    The reason this guy got arrested was not because he walked past security. He got arrested because he was a d!ck to the LEO. The fact is he pushed it as far as he did knowing he would be arrested. He could have just have easily played the game and shown the cop his ID. I think that it is a law in Georgia to show ID when asked by a LEO. Cops or attorneys correct me if I am wrong. At the point the cop showed up it seems there was reasonable cause to believe something "might be amiss". At least enough for him to ask for an ID to make sure he wasn't wanted, etc. The "victim" could have simply pulled the cop aside and stated he didn't think he should have to show his receipt. He could have explained the policy is offensive to him and the cop likely would have just said, "OK, but stop next time or shop somewhere else." Isn't it also OK for the store to ask to see your bag if they have a sign posted? At my work there is a sign which states that carrying a bag on the property gives them a right to inspect it.

    I am all about principles. However, when you are openly challenging the system - in front of your minor siblings - to prove a point - then don't complain to me about how you feel bad they were crying.

    I don't understand why so many people think the way to challenge a policy they think is wrong by pushing something this far. Stand up to the store, OK. Stand up to the cop, stupid. Wonder what he will do to purposely piss off the judge? To me this doesn't make the store or the cop look bad. You know the store manager is going ot be a wanker when someone doesn't follow his rules. The cop is just doing his job, wondering WTF is this guys problem. It makes this "victim" look like a d!ckhead trouble maker. I guess this is what you do when you are single and 18 years old.

    Let the flames begin. I have my extinguisher at the ready. If you agree, give me a shout out 'cause I know most here will disagree with my post.
     
  9. VolGrad

    VolGrad Tactical Statistician

    Not sure this is the same cop, but I think it is. He is one of the featured officers on a cable show called "SPEEDERS". His nickname is "The Hammer" because he never lets you off with a warning. He is by the book.

    EDIT - NOT THE SAME GUY - SIMILAR NAME. OOPS.
     
  10. merlock

    merlock Active Member

    2,515
    0
    36
    Seems there are a lot of :sheep: at Ars... :?
     
  11. merlock

    merlock Active Member

    2,515
    0
    36
    Although it seems that most LEO's will arrest you for this, I don't think it is illegal. And, it seems that it's OK for LEO's to treat citizens in this manner, or worse. :x

    If they can't deal with people, then they are in the wrong line of work.

    I hope that guy has a good payday!
     
  12. foshizzle

    foshizzle New Member

    1,283
    0
    0
    Links not working anymore... can't make the database connection? :?
     
  13. VolGrad

    VolGrad Tactical Statistician

    I hear what you are saying. A cop does have to have a high tolerance for crap. My point was though, and I may be wrong, but you do have to present ID when asked. If the guy refused then I was under the understanding he could be arrested and taken downtown until he could be positively identified. The fact that he was acting like he was toward the officer, who was just trying to do his job - he didn't initiate this whole event, the kid did - his attitude just insured he was going to be arrested and not given the discretion the officer could have allowed.
     
  14. merlock

    merlock Active Member

    2,515
    0
    36
    The 'victim' posted a relevant snippet from the Ohio code:

    I think you're right that we have to present ID on demand here in GA, but it looks like that is not the case in OH.
     
  15. AV8R

    AV8R Banned

    6,624
    2
    0
    Couldn't tell ya... never been arrested. :p
     
  16. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

    5,798
    0
    0
    Which I was was unaware was against the law.

    Incorrect.

    He didn't think the policy was wrong. There was no law mandating he produce his ID other than verbally telling the officer his name, place of residence and DOB. The officer was WRONG.

    I don't see how this is any different from the problems of some VCDL members who are being harassed for openly carrying their weapons.

    Yeah! How dare a citizen disobey a police officer! The fact that what the citizen did was NOT against the law is inconsequential! How dare they disobey the man with the gun and the badge! He needs some of Edison's medicine! [/sarcasm]
    But seriously, the cop was trying to enforce something that was NOT a law. That is WRONG and unethical.

    Actually, quite to the contrary. People young and old value their civil liberties.
     
  17. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    Well, it's mostly just Emkorial and Jonathan, posters that the smart regulars know to ignore. :p But the worst one over there is definitely budder. What an idiot.
     
  18. Thorsen

    Thorsen New Member

    4,226
    0
    0
    I do. I refuse to hand over my receipt on a regular basis as I don't agree with allowing a corporate employee to search my property. You see, it becomes my property when I exchange something I own (money) for something they own (goods). If they get to search my property, I should in turn be able to count the money in their safe.

    To you that may seem petty, but the erosion of your freedoms is ongoing on every front. Allowing someone to search your property on the way out of a business may not seem like a significant infringement to you, but it sure is invasive to me. It tells me that I am suspected of thievery and I will be searched before being allowed to leave.

    No thanks. They can search all the sheep they care to, but I don't play along. Then again, unlike this guy, I don't talk to them either. I simply ignore them and continue on my way.

    While this guy was arrested in Ohio, Georgia is a stop and identify state, which means you do have to give your identity to the police when asked. It does not mean that you have to "produce your papers", but failure to do so may result in you being detained until your identity can be verified. So it is a bit of a catch-22 here in this state. Keep in mind that the officer, no matter what state, must have some form of reasonable suspicion to ask for your identity.

    So in Georgia would you be detained for failing to provide your state issued ID? Probably. I tend to work with the police as long as their requests are reasonable and I don't find being asked to identify myself unreasonable, so in this guy's situation I would have probably given the officer my driver's license and then insisted on pressing charges for unlawful detainment.

    If, in this guy's case, I had a police officer telling me that the store had a right to search my stuff upon exiting, I would have taken it up with his superiors.
     
  19. GunNut

    GunNut New Member

    1,966
    0
    0
    That is :censored: up! The circuit city employees should have been arrested for harassment.

    The whole receipt check this is completely stupid, especially at the wholesale clubs. I have watched the guy many times, he "tries" to count the items and the cart and glances the receipt. How exactly is that suppose to identify any items that I slipped in the cart that I would have had to have hidden on my person when I went thru the check out line? I always thought it was like the greeter at Walmart, give a senior a job to help their corporate evil image.

    Best Buy is another favorite. You can be standing in the checkout line that is 3 feet from the dude at the door. He can be watching you the whole time while you pay. Take two steps towards the door and he asks for your receipt.

    I have continued to walk several times as the alarm went off as I exited Home Depot. I knew I paid for items. Why should I be harassed just because the idiot at the checkout can't deactivate their security strips. They have never come after me, once they yelled out, but I just kept walking like I didn't hear them. I think it goes off on every 5th person that exits anyway.

    I still frequent the wholesale clubs and play their game at the door since they have good prices on some items and I want to continue to go there. Best Buy, Circuit City, etc, those places really annoy me, so I vote with my check book and never go there. Usually you can save some money ordering online anyway.