[pml]

since 2007, true or false?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/01/opinion/the-threat-to-public-safety-if-concealed-carry-goes-national.html

 

[gunsmoker]

Doesn't sound true.
But I don't feel like going over their study with a fine toothed comb.
If they're saying it's nearly 900 criminal homicides (murder, manslaughter, feticide, etc) and NOT counting suicides, it's a very big claim.

 

[mrhutch]

Their info source includes 300+ suicides, and 200+ justified shootings in that total. Of the rest, I would wager most of the "convicted homicides" are unjustly ruled self defense cases. I'm thinking the authors of the sourced study have also confused "legally purchased guns" with "carry permit holders", because the claim that 29 permit holders have committed mass shootings killing over 100 people total seems completely falsified. They also completely disregard the thousands of instances where guns save lives and stop crime without a shot being fired by only counting the 200+ justifiable homicides as successful self defense with a firearm and claiming "guns save lives is a myth".

 

[MewsicLovr]

A great deal of them are indeed suicides.

In the vast majority of the 706 incidents documented in Concealed Carry Killers (591, or 84 percent), the concealed carry permit holder either committed suicide (293), has already been convicted (226), perpetrated a murder-suicide (55), or was killed in the incident (17). Of the 87 cases still pending, the vast majority (74) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and nine incidents are still under investigation. An additional 28 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder.

They also have a handy chart:

The data they draw their conclusions from is here:

http://concealedcarrykillers.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ccwtotalkilled.pdf

Looks like many of them are just someone who happened to have a concealed license, and they would have committed their crime whether they had one or not. They seem to overlook the millions of people who have licenses but somehow manage not to kill anyone.

 

[Fallschirmjäger]

No comprehensive data exists on non-self defense killings by private citizens with permits to carry concealed handguns in public.
Concealed Carry Killers offers examples from May 2007 to the present of such incidents, which are taken from news reports and the limited state data available. These examples are only an unknown fraction of the unreported number of similar incidents that routinely occur across the nation.
Concealed Carry Killers does not include the small number of incidents that are eventually determined to involve self-defense or where there's no verdict reached at trial. All such incidents are removed from the database's ongoing totals.

Substitute one group for another and it's easy to see their duplicitousness...


No comprehensive data exists on the number of Atlantic Islander Natives who are not on assistance in the private sector.
Islanders 'Я' Evil presents only selected examples from news reports and other limited data. These examples are only an unknown fraction of the unreported number of Atlantic Islanders in the public sector.
Islanders 'Я' Evil does not include the unverifiable, but we’re going to assume it's small, number of Islanders that are eventually determined to have advanced degrees or are successful entrepreneurs. All such incidents (of successful Islanders) are removed from the database's ongoing totals in order to present the narrative we desire.

 

[Rugerer]

The article in this post takes apart some of the numbers in that NYT (auto-correct NUT, heh) piece.

http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/showthread.php?p=2875549#post2875549

 

[Mrs_Esterhouse]

If a New Yorker wants to outsource their security to the police or a private firm, fine by me. I have no problem with that if that's what someone chooses for themselves. What I don't understand is the inquisition against others who choose to be self-reliant and provide for their own security. Why bully and lie about people who have made choices that happen to differ from yours? In New York, why is diversity of thought and life-philosophy met with so much disdain? My motto is do whatever you want so long as you don't deprive others of their freedoms. This article NYT published, along with its misleading data, is intended to set the stage to control people of opposing viewpoints via force of law.

 

[Archangel]

People still pay attention to the New York Times??

:rotfl:

 

[pml]

People still pay attention to the New York Times??

:rotfl:

Sure. They had well over a million paid online subscribers at one point. Probably still do.

I can't always follow up right away due to work. Those permit holder numbers seemed off to me.

They parallel the decline of the once very good AJC and newspapers in general, since about 40 years ago. Real reporters and columnists replaced with hacks because good writers won't work for today's newspaper pay.

 

[Verbal101]

Of course the NYT quotes research by an anti-gun group and conveniently fails to mention any data that would refute. I thought we'd learned from other studies that:

- permit holders are less likely to commit any crime that other groups
- even less likely than police to commit crimes
- only a fraction of a percent of licensed gun owners ever have their permit revoked

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/concealed-carry/

And since when does a permit holder have to kill an assailant in order to stop a crime?

 

[moe mensale]

The NYT reports.....Strike 1

A study by the Violence Policy Center......Strike 2

The VPC study includes suicides (nearly 40%)......Strike 3

 

[pml]

Of course the NYT quotes research by an anti-gun group and conveniently fails to mention any data that would refute. I thought we'd learned from other studies that:

- permit holders are less likely to commit any crime that other groups
- even less likely than police to commit crimes
- only a fraction of a percent of licensed gun owners ever have their permit revoked

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/concealed-carry/

And since when does a permit holder have to kill an assailant in order to stop a crime?

Exactly

 

[Verbal101]

People still pay attention to the New York Times??

:rotfl:

I find it both ironic and disturbing that people who only read the NYT and watch CNN accuse those who use other sources to be duped by "fake news", yet they are blindly consuming the DNC approved narrative.

 

[GM404]

This thread can be closed now. The data is wrong and thus 100% irrelevant. The very study says the following:

"No comprehensive data exists on non-self defense killings by private citizens with permits to carry concealed handguns in public. "

So...it's a non-starter "newz story". Big surprise there, eh?

 

[45_Fan]

So using the NYT numbers...
8 million permit holders in 2012
605 non-suicide deaths in almost a decade
If my math isn't terribly off, that's 0.0008% or 0.8375 per 100,000 per year.

Now we could spend an additional 2-3 paragraphs on statistical (in)significance, etc. but that's just a red herring from the VPC. The conclusion that "more people are killed illegally than justifiably by privately held firearms" is certainly obvious...but using that to justify a ban on private gun ownership certainly ignores all the times that the presence of a firearm, warning shot, or non-fatal injury has saved a life.

In much the same way we focus tons of attention on automobile-related fatalities, there is much less reporting on where automobiles have saved lives, be it fire trucks, wreckers, ambulances, mobile nurses, or food&fuel delivery. Vehicles are responsible for 312,090 fatalities in from 2007 to 2015. Applying the same logic from the VPC report...citizen, please proceed to the nearest DMV and turn in your vehicle...

 

[Gunstar1]

All are valid counters to the Times and VPC, but the biggest slight of hand has been missed thus far.

Always, always, always look up what the definition of the terms being used is, from the same place the data comes from.

In this case, justified homicide does not include what you think it does.

 

[Rugerer]

In this case, justified homicide does not include what you think it does.

Guessing, but only when a killing went all they way through the court system for verdict, not when police decline to refer.

 

[tmoore912]

A great deal of them are indeed suicides.

They also have a handy chart:

The data they draw their conclusions from is here:

http://concealedcarrykillers.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ccwtotalkilled.pdf

Looks like many of them are just someone who happened to have a concealed license, and they would have committed their crime whether they had one or not. They seem to overlook the millions of people who have licenses but somehow manage not to kill anyone.

Violence Policy Center’s Creative Writing Skills.

by Miguel @GunFreeZone.net http://gunfreezone.net/index.php/2016/12/02/violence-policy-centers-creative-writing-skills/

For those new reading the blog or may have missed it, I covered before the deceptive writings of VPC’s Concealed Carry Killers before. I had not checked on it on a while and decided to see what’s new.

I found a newly designed site and what appears to be a mixture of clickbait with a disclaimer, just like those parody news websites like The Onion of Duffleblog.

 

[Phil1979]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

Finally, got THAT out of my system now. :lol:

Guessing, but only when a killing went all they way through the court system for verdict, not when police decline to refer.

 

[tmoore912]

Not so good at the math

by J. Kb @GunFreeZone.net http://gunfreezone.net/index.php/2016/12/02/no-so-good-at-the-math/

The editorial board at the New York Times is concerned about "The Threat to Public Safety if 'Concealed Carry' Goes National."

Their problem, of course, is that we CCW permit holders are just too dangerous.

Actually… the VPC is an anti-gun organization. They operate an anti-CCW website called Concealed Carry Killers, so they might just be a little bit biased. BUT, for the sake of argument, lets accept their data as 100% accurate.

VPC data lists 898 deaths in 9 years. The Crime Prevention Research Center shows that in 2007 there were 4.6 million people with CCW permits and by July, 2016 there are 14.5 million people with CCW permits.

Let's say that the increase in permits has been linear, so the average number of permits from 2007 to 2016 is 9.55 million. That gives us for 2007 - 2016, 1 non-justified shooting for every 10,635 CCW permit holders, or 0.0094% of CCW permit holders committed a non-justified shooting.

More at the link..........

If you happen to have a Twitter account, you can follow Miguel @GunFreeZone I'm sure he would love the follow.