So were they, Nurse Wubbels. So were they. That's why they took the route of cowardice and did nothing.
Nurse ! do as the cop says or get arrested
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I am puzzled by this whole event:
1. Did they want to draw the blood or did they order the nurse to draw the blood?
2. If the first did she physically try to stop them? If not in what way was she interfering?
3. If the second did she refuse what she considered an unlawful order? Under what authority did they order her to perform what she considered a illegal action?
As usual the news reports clear nothing up
1. Did they want to draw the blood or did they order the nurse to draw the blood?
2. If the first did she physically try to stop them? If not in what way was she interfering?
3. If the second did she refuse what she considered an unlawful order? Under what authority did they order her to perform what she considered a illegal action?
As usual the news reports clear nothing up
One story I read says she refused to provide a sample this one says she refused to let him draw blood. So which is it and did she physically try to stop him?
Never count on the truth from any news media. They are all pursuing their own agenda, and then you have the typically massive incompetence of news reporters. Lack of research. Lack of editing. Lack of proofreading.
Plus, there are 3 sides to every story. Side A, side B, and the truth. It's usually based on the viewpoint.
Plus, there are 3 sides to every story. Side A, side B, and the truth. It's usually based on the viewpoint.
Provide a blood sampleOne story I read says she refused to provide a sample this one says she refused to let him draw blood. So which is it and did she physically try to stop him?
Get a blood sample
Obtain a blood sample
Draw a blood sample
All substantially the same, but with slight differences of meaning. My take is that Det. Payne wasn't trying to draw a blood sample. Not unless he just happened to have his own phlebotomy kit on his person, that is. And, I'm fairly sure the hospital isn't going to expose themselves to any legal action by letting some random person use their medical equipment on an unconscious person.
That leaves the more believable explanation that Payne requested, then demanded a sample be provided for him and grew angry when his demand was not submitted to by the hospital (in the person of Nurse Wubbles.)
If Det. Payne's position was that Nurse Wubbles interfered or hindered his drawing of a blood sample, that's not supported by the shown portions of his body camera, nor by any reports of his official version of the incident. At no time was Wubbles seen to physically interject herself between Payne and the unconscious accident victim.
[Det. Jeff] Payne's defense is that his lieutenant, James Tracy, whom he spoke to by phone, had urged him to arrest her [for not cooperating with his efforts to obtain a blood sample]. Tracy eventually arrives at the scene in the extended video and appears to confirm that Payne acted on his instructions. Tracy also further berates Wubbels as she sits, handcuffed, in the police car. He tells her that, while she may be citing hospital rules, he has "the law" on his side, a formulation he repeats to one of the paramedics who approaches the car, saying, "There's a very bad habit here of your policy interfering with my law." - The New Yorker.com
I think I'm beginning to understand the problem, and it seems to be an 'us' versus 'them' thing for the law enforcement officers involved.
I think I'm beginning to understand the problem, and it seems to be an 'us' versus 'them' thing for the law enforcement officers involved.
That's when you tell your Lt. "No." I did it more than once. Following orders is not really a defense when you are later sued.[Det. Jeff] Payne's defense is that his lieutenant, James Tracy, whom he spoke to by phone, had urged him to arrest her [for not cooperating with his efforts to obtain a blood sample]. Tracy eventually arrives at the scene in the extended video and appears to confirm that Payne acted on his instructions. Tracy also further berates Wubbels as she sits, handcuffed, in the police car.
I think if he went to draw the sample and she interfered they might have a defense.
If on the other hand he told her to draw a sample for him, or give him a sample drawn for another reason, absent a court order, they don't have a leg to stand on. You can't order a person to perform an act they consider illegal and then arrest them for not doing it.
If on the other hand he told her to draw a sample for him, or give him a sample drawn for another reason, absent a court order, they don't have a leg to stand on. You can't order a person to perform an act they consider illegal and then arrest them for not doing it.
You are forgetting about item 1.I think if he went to draw the sample and she interfered they might have a defense.
If on the other hand he told her to draw a sample for him, or give him a sample drawn for another reason, absent a court order, they don't have a leg to stand on. You can't order a person to perform an act they consider illegal and then arrest them for not doing it.
Yes, but in your case, were you telling the LT that someone wouldn't let you so something and you wanted to know what action to take? He was looking for permission to arrest/punish her. And by asking permission he believed he could absolve himself of responsibility.
I imagine it went something like - - -
"She's preventing me from getting/obtaining a blood sample, I can't do my job if she's obstructing me."
"If she's obstructing you, then she needs to be arrested."
I imagine it went something like - - -
"She's preventing me from getting/obtaining a blood sample, I can't do my job if she's obstructing me."
"If she's obstructing you, then she needs to be arrested."
Plenty of cities and police departments are sued often enough to negate item 1. The individual officer might not be liable but the city is for his actionsYou are forgetting about item 1.
Again I think it falls into how she was "obstructing" him. If she was physically trying to stop him yes if she was refusing to comply with an order for an action on her part, like drawing blood, no. He can instruct her to move out of the way he can't tell her to draw blood without a court order."She's preventing me from getting/obtaining a blood sample, I can't do my job if she's obstructing me."
"If she's obstructing you, then she needs to be arrested."
I'm not a lawyer but I think it comes down to the fact he can't order her to assist him in any action she thinks federal regulations prohibit and then arrest her for not complying. She should have simply told him she wanted the hospitals lawyer present
opcorn:
Longer video. Found it through the New Yorker link from Falls above.
Nemo
Nemo
Taxpayers get punished while criminal cops that break the law walk free.Plenty of cities and police departments are sued often enough to negate item 1. The individual officer might not be liable but the city is for his actions
AgreedTaxpayers get punished while criminal cops that break the law walk free.
He would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for that meddling EMTALA law!Seems planning on what patients to take where didn't won't work out for him either.
Nemo
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/05/utah-detective-who-dragged-nurse-fired-from-paramedic-job.html
I don't give a damn what he wanted. You're not assaulting my unconscious patient. Badge or no badge. The patient can't advocate for himself so that's what I have to do.I think if he went to draw the sample and she interfered they might have a defense.
If on the other hand he told her to draw a sample for him, or give him a sample drawn for another reason, absent a court order, they don't have a leg to stand on. You can't order a person to perform an act they consider illegal and then arrest them for not doing it.
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