NRA Carry Guard Training - No 1911s or Revolvers allowed

Discussion in 'Training' started by UtiPossidetis, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. UtiPossidetis

    UtiPossidetis American

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    "*NOTE: NRA Carry Guard Level One is designed for training with a semi-automatic handgun (Glock 19/17, Sig P226/P228 or equivalent). We will not allow revolvers or 1911s as your primary firearm in this class."

    Guess NRA doesn't have staff qualified to actually teach quality firearms handling under safe conditions regardless of the platform. Geez. No 1911s or Revolvers? Ok, is this run by Glock? Has NRA sub-contracted these courses out?

    What a joke the entire Carry Guard rollout has been IMHO.
     
  2. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    Well, that is one of several issues with the NRA Carry Guard program. I suspect that they did this to get everyone shooting higher-capacity polymers, but they could have been more specific. It certainly alienates a large percentage of shooters though. In addition, the program doesn't appear to have been developed by the NRA training program, but rather from an outside firm as managed by the NRA's PR firm. It will be interesting to see what happens when the actually role out in-person courses (vs. the online digital courses).
     

  3. UtiPossidetis

    UtiPossidetis American

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    True in all regards. That outside firm appears to be made up of "operators" exclusively. Sorry but I've taken courses from Elite Operators that were complete crap and from deputy sheriffs that were excellent. This apparent need on NRAs part to make everything "Tacti-cool" just seems poorly considered. Add to that this posting from another site I frequent and you have an interesting problem for NRA IMHO.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    OMG - that photo! There was something that bugged me about it when I saw it previously and I just skimmed it. Yeah, I'm not taking training or recommend that anyone else does from somewhere that draws like that. Not only is finger on the trigger, but his grip is too low as well. The low grip isn't a huge deal, but for an instructor that draws all of the time while teaching classes (and practicing) I wouldn't expect to see that (and certainly not in a publicity shot for a training class). However, with that said, I disagree with the pull/draw taught in a lot of classes anyway. In many classes there seems to be this emphasis on drawing the gun up high before rotating the muzzle to face the target and then pressing out. I've always preferred to rotate the muzzle to address the target immediately, then raise and press out. I guess this isn't taught due to concerns with accidentally shooting your non-dominant/supporting hand, but since most of us would be drawing in a CQB situation, I want the option to get the muzzle on the target ASAP. I at least have the option of point-shooting at that point.
     
  5. UtiPossidetis

    UtiPossidetis American

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    It's been suggested elsewhere that the photo is from some high-speed competition. I don't care. Again, people fall to the level of their training when under stress. That draw violates at least one of the 4 fundamental rules of safe weapons handling and is not defensible IMHO, particularly for the lead instructor for the NRA "Gold Standard" training. Then again, I am fundamentally against the rules for many of the modern pistol competitions. Finger on trigger prior to pointing in a safe direction should immediately disqualify the competitor for that round. Two such instances should disqualify them from the competition. But hey, I was trained the right way IMHO. Too many "Tacti-cool" "Operators" out there for my peace of mind.

    Two other issues: 1) the photo was originally used by NRA in their advertising but has apparently disappeared since it was pointed out that it is a horrible example of safe gun handling and 2) the instructor apparently has some previous injury to his hand and that is NRAs excuse for his poor gun safety. You decide.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  6. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    NRA "Carry Guard" training :


    Do you think they're being overly cautious?

    Or, trying to minimize their own potential liability if one of their members has a situation where they push the limits of self-defense laws?
     

    Attached Files:

  7. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    I agree with the principle that one should not always "take a shot" just because they think have a legal green light to do so based on the letter of the law.
    . You should and are expected to use judgment and even restraint .
    But I'm surprised the NRA is basically telling people not to count on the very "stand your ground" laws that the NRA helped pass in most states.


    I agree that being reasonable is almost always a component of any defense or justification for harming somebody else.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  8. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    It is not taught that way to keep you from shooting your weak hand. It is taught that way because in a CQB situation, you can shoot from up high, by your chest, and maintain control over your firearm, while also being able to use your weak hand to fight if need be and your strong arm elbow on any assailants behind you. If they are not right on top of you, then you can go ahead and push forward, extending your arm.

    A gun brought up right from the holster is much easier to grab and much more difficult for you to maintain control. If the bad guy is right on top of you, it will be much more difficult to shoot him and much more difficult to retain your firearm than if you pulled it up high close to your body.

    Much better for fighting, and, at the end of the day, that is what this is, a fight.

    It is as simple as that.
     
  9. Rugerer

    Rugerer GeePeeDoHolic

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    I'm not sure if you're talking the same things. This sounds like bringing gun from holster sweeping your arm out to aiming position.

    I understood RDM to ask about rotating muzzle forward as soon as you can, but gun is still brought up close to your body, where you push out from chest if able.

    The gun doesn't wait until it's at chest to start pointing out.

    I was also trained as RDM described. Rotate out of holster, gun travels up body to meet support hand halfway, sights brought up to meet eyesight, then push out. I thought he asking about exactly when you rotate.
     
  10. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    Correct - almost like the Hollywood Western or quickdraw where the muzzle is pointed at the target as soon as it clears the holster (but you still continue to raise the firearm up for aimed shots). The firearm is still kept close to the body for retention. You can still push out, lock in for a high CAR position, etc.
     
  11. Scott 40s&w

    Scott 40s&w Member

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    Back on topic

    The NRA Training and Education dept has nothing to do with the NRA Carry Guard. IMHO that is a slap in the face to the thousands of NRA instructors and TC who have spent years investing in the NRA training Program. I have email every person I can think of about the program and have not gotten one response. That includes Carry Guard and the CEO LaPerrie. The NRA should put forth some guidelines and procedures to stop all the rumors and BS I see about Carry Guard.
    There is plenty of competition for the CCW insurance and training and $850 for a 3 day class is high by any standard. I may go the Carry guard convention to see how much more they want to put out there.

    Oh and by the way the NRA Outdoors has there on training courses as well. No body in the NRA training department approved that either.
    What is going on in Fairfax?
     
  12. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    This is a good example of how I've seen a lot of training: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_W2w0oBwb8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_W2w0oBwb8[/ame]
    Check out the slow motion draw starting at the 0:15 mark. With this style of pull, the muzzle doesn't address the target until late in the draw.

    Now compare it to this: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s8t_5VT06M[/ame]
    At the 2:15 mark you can see the CQB draw.

    I've found that, in practicing a draw, I always practice the CQB draw like that sown in the 2nd video. If I needed to all in a self-defense situation, I'd hopefully not have to deal with someone on top of me like the second video shows, but I'm still likely to be close to the target and will want to keep a focus on retaining my firearm close to the body.
     
  13. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. It is as if the NRA has completely ditched the focus on quality training focused on safety and effectiveness to some type of PR/money-centric focus for something that "sells good".
     
  14. UtiPossidetis

    UtiPossidetis American

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    Apparently Carry Guard got SLAMMED with criticism. I guess logic, reality, and money overrode the Tactitard "experts" in the end.

    Jason J. Brown, the Media Relations Manager for NRA Carry Guard, stated the following in an email to GunsAmerica:

    In response to clear feedback surrounding the NRA Carry Guard Level I course announcement, we have modified the required firearm platforms as well as our site language to clearly articulate how firearms will be used in the class.

    Bottom line: our decision to not include 1911s and revolvers as primary firearms in our initial Level I course was a mistake, and we appreciate the feedback we have received from the firearms community.

    In response to the clear and overwhelming demand for these firearms to be used throughout the entire course, our instructors have decided to accommodate all safe, reliable handguns with a capacity of 6 rounds or more. Firearms with less than 6 rounds of capacity will still be allowed as secondary platforms.

    We welcome anyone serious about building the skills necessary to defend themselves and their families to attend our NRA Carry Guard Level I course, beginning in July.
     
  15. jmorriss

    jmorriss Active Member

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    So all those 5 shot 38 revolvers and sub compact semi autos/pocket guns...

    More stupid from the NRA :screwy:
     
  16. UtiPossidetis

    UtiPossidetis American

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    Not disagreeing with you but as one of the commentators pointed out, the original decision by NRA eliminated ALL Kimber weapons and the majority of S&W weapons sold for home defense in the US. Basically, the gave the middle finger to many of the US pistol manufacturers. This at least allows all the customized, high cost, 1911s back in and most revolvers.

    Oh, and I love this video.

    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xepDHBAthQw&feature=youtu.be[/ame]
     
  17. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    That pretty much says it all...
     
  18. Rugerer

    Rugerer GeePeeDoHolic

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    This tells me that CarryGuard has nothing to do with training and education but is nothing more than marketing and politics. I would not be surprised to see attempts to link CG and legislation that hints at required training in the future. Stuff like this constantly erodes my trust in the NRA.

    And for them to exclude revolvers and then "oops" bring them back shows how tone-deaf they are.
     
  19. UtiPossidetis

    UtiPossidetis American

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    It's now being floated that Carry Guard came did not come out of T&E at NRA. Carry Guard is out of General operations. Carry Guard is actualy direct competition to the the NRA certified instructors and was done without approval of the board.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  20. Match10

    Match10 Active Member

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    I so want to show up carrying one of my Ruger Super Blackhawks.... :popcorn: