Nfa

Discussion in 'Firearm Related' started by Wegahe, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. YES

    6 vote(s)
    42.9%
  2. NO

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. I just want the NFA repealed.

    8 vote(s)
    57.1%
  1. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    I think most of the gun owners would like to see the NFA repealed and abolished. While it is a great dream I doubt it would ever happen. So how about just some changes to the way it works to make it less of an obstacle.

    1. Add another check box to the 4473 labeled NFA.
    2. Require the NICS background check for NFA purchases / regardless of carry license.
    3. Eliminate special forms to be submitted to the ATF for approval.
    4. Repeal GOPA 1986.
    5. On NICS approval pay for the weapon, tax, bag it and take it home.

    I would like to see the carry license sub for the NICS like any other firearm purchase but this could be a special bone to throw in to maybe get a couple more people on board.

    Any other suggestions to reduce the burden since the NFA isn't going anywhere?
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  2. Fallschirmjäger

    Fallschirmjäger I watch the watchers

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    Do you mean the usual '+10% FAET excise tax' or the 'we don't want you to own an NFA weapon' $200 tax stamp?
     

  3. TITAN308

    TITAN308 :) :) :)

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    I'd pay the $200 without protest as a starting point.

    That doesn't mean I don't want it eventually repealed.

    So I voted Yes.

    I don't think Choice #1 and #3 have to be mutually exclusive long term.
     
  4. mrhutch

    mrhutch Well-Known Member

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    Immediate approval would be a huge step. The $200 infringement tax sucks, but the 6-12 month wait sucks more. You should be able to set up an account online where they verify your info before finalizing the account, then perform instant approval transfers under that account any time after that. Log in, enter weapon SN, pay tax, print approval form for gun store to file, take possession of item.
     
  5. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    This is another good idea for improving the way the NFA works. This would be more like pre screening at the airport. If you already own NFA items then you should not have to go through all the red tape every time you wish to make a purchase.
     
  6. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    I don't think we should have 4473's either. Realistically though I don't see those going away anytime soon. If we could just for the current status of the way the country is eliminate 90% of the red tape and the endless wait times I would settle for #1
     
  7. Wheedle

    Wheedle Active Member

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    I voted yes as a good start that might have a chance, but, I'd really rather have it all repealed.
     
  8. TITAN308

    TITAN308 :) :) :)

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    Ideally (as I mentioned) choice #1 would be a transitioning step to choice #3.

    Honestly I pay a lot of taxes on all kinds of **** and some of it is a crap ton more than $200.

    I bet if you did a poll on a major gun web/blog site and asked which people hated more, the money or the wait time... well I think we are all pretty educated here and can guess with some accuracy which way that poll would go.
     
  9. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    How about the idea that I trade cash for item, put item in bag and leave. Like buying a bag of sugar.

    Nemo
     
  10. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    Yes that is the ultimate idea. No NFA. Since this is not going to happen the suggestion that I made is almost the same thing. More than likely the best we could hope for.
     
  11. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Wegahe:

    The NICS check is based on a person's name, DOB and SSN (if they provide that-- it's optional).
    And it's based on the person in a gun store showing some government-issued ID that matches the name they put on the form.

    Now, we all know that identity theft is a huge problem. Any illegal alien in the USA can pay $200-$500 and have a good fake Georgia Driver's license or ID card created for them.
    Fake ID's are cheap and easy, and we see them all the time in the criminal justice system.

    The fingerprint-based background check required for a weapons carry permit is better.
    So is the current system of fingerprinting for the background checks for NFA items when you do a Form 1 build or Form 4 transfer of an NFA item.
     
  12. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    I'd accept the level of risk of a criminal, terrorist, or crazy SOB purchasing some kinds of weapons with a fake ID.
    Normal sporting firearms, ordinary handguns, AND EVEN some NFA items like SBRs, SBS's, AOW's, and Silencers.

    But not machine guns. Not bombs and bazookas and cannon.
    For THOSE, I think we are better off with making would-be owners of such weapons get vetted with a fingerprint-based background check.
    It doesn't have to take long. Many places to inkless computerized scans of prints. Instant transmission of the prints to the FBI / NICS / GBI via internet secure connection.
     
  13. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    If you had read my OP all NFA would still require the NICS background check even if you have a valid carry license. This is all that's required currently sans the special forms to be sent to the ATF for them to put the stamp on it. The ATF forms would be replaced by ones provided by the FFL with the ATF approval code. This is the same code put on the 4473 when you purchase any firearm from an FFL. If a terrorist wants an NFA item of any kind they already have them so this argument is moot. It's like saying criminals can't get a gun because they can't pass a background check. Criminas and terrorist alike are not going to go through the legal process to obtain weapons.
     
  14. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    NICS is the National Instant Check System.
    It's the Brady background check. NOT fingerprint-based. Name-based.
    The name the gun-buyer gives to check may not be his own name. It may be the name of some law-abiding U.S. citizen who will surely pass the check.
    The same name that's on the fake ID.

    I had been making a second point, about how GWL holders had to do a fingerprint-based background check, but I suppose if a Driver's License can be faked, then a GWL can be faked, too.

    I don't agree with your statement "if a terrorist wants an NFA item of any kind they already have them."
    They don't have them in THIS country.
    Terrorists in the USA do buy weapons from the same sources that you and I do. They don't just pick them up at a flea market and trade some sheep and goats for AK-47s like they can in the Middle East.

    Yes, I want would-be terrorists to face greater obstacles to buying machineguns and anti-armor weapons or exploding ordnance in the USA than they should face for buying regular guns.
     
  15. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    The NICS BG check is not just name based. DOB, POB, County, City, State of residence and other ID'ing info is also transmitted to the NICS. You don't get all that info from a $200 to $500 fake ID. A fingerprint BG check is no better if the applicants fake name fingerprints are not in the database. Millions of people have never purchased a gun or had their fingerprints submitted for any reason. Even if you require the fingerprint odds are well in their favor they would slip through anyway. Until July of last year none of this was required. Any would be terrorist could already have these weapons simply through a Trust. Any would be terrorist has already smuggled them into the country or will simply smuggle them in. Weapons cross the border just as easily as drugs. You can't stop them with a stringent back ground check or with passing a law. Criminals like terrorist will have what they need to carry out their plots against the USA and it's citizens. Watch the movie Invasion USA. Yes it's a stupid Chuck Norris movie but you just need to watch the first 30 minutes to see how easy it would be for terrorist to have whatever they wanted. Watch October Sky and see how easy it would be to build rocket powered stuff with off the shelf products. This dreamland method of stopping them will not work...
     
  16. mrhutch

    mrhutch Well-Known Member

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    Are you really so brainwashed to believe that a criminal will go through the trouble and expense of using a fake ID to pay $20,000- $30,000 for a transferable machine gun? If you're going to break the law, you can build a full auto AK or AR among other options for under $1000. The NFA is not keeping NFA items away from any criminals any more than Chicago gun laws are.
     
  17. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    Actually, they suck equally. There is absolutely no rational reason that the owner of a rifle with a 1.5" shorter barrel, for example, should be subject to enhanced requirements and taxes.

    As far as machine guns, they weren't an issue prior to 1986. Easy to acquire, cheap and never caused any problems by civilian owners. But an unrecorded and questionable voice vote in 1986 said we citizens couldn't be trusted with new ones, only old ones. How the hell rational is that?

    Screw the NFA. Just scrap it.
     
  18. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    If you don't like Chuck (blasphemy!) watch The Score with Robert DeNiro and see how easy people and stuff get into the US from Canada. Mexico isn't the only problem.
     
  19. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    IF there are terrorist in the USA (odds are they are) they could already have a stockpile waiting for the right time or the full team to get in place. Just like 9/11/2001 they waited, trickled in, trained and let loose on the USA. The plots were there, the methods were there and the team was assembled. It's naive to blindly think they are not already assembling the pieces of the puzzle getting everything in place. One refugee at a time with a fake passport (they do have the passport equipment and are making their own as I type) the team is being put in place. In Iraq the battle for Western Mosul ISIS is using car bombs, snipers and dozens of armed drones. Does anyone really think this can't easily be done here? So to think the NFA requirements could even begin to curtail a terrorist is naive and short sighted. Law abiding citizens waiting 6 months to a year to acquire weapons to defend their self or the homeland is ridiculous. The only thing the suggested changes do is eliminate the wait time for law abiding citizens. A fake SS will not be listed in the database. A fake DL will not be listed in the database. A fake birth certificate will not be listed in the database. The NICS will catch 99.99% of the fakes.