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I am sure that the gun store is right that it is demographics. If a gun store is in a high crime area then it will be involved in selling guns that are used in crime. However, gun stores should be on the look out for anything suspicious. It is difficult if not impossible to tell if someone is making a straw purchase. As a gun retailer I can say that there is no real way to determine that. But if for example a woman comes in and says I want to buy a certain gun, she provides make, model, caliber, etc... that could raise suspicions, maybe she is buying it for a boyfriend who can't own a gun. On the other hand you don't want to violate anyone's gun ownership rights. That and the fact that more and more women are buying guns. It is a tough situation, it is too bad that gun salesmen cannot read minds to find out who is buying a gun for an illegitimate purpose.
 

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How would it be any different for a woman to come into a gun store and ask for a very specific model and caliber of gun compared to a man doing the same thing?
Do you assume that all women are newbies who never learned anything about guns on their own?
And men are just naturally infused with this knowledge at birth, including what the different frame sizes for S&W revolvers are called and which calibers are available for the 1911 platform?

Maybe the woman in question did some online research? Maybe she grew up in a family with guns? Maybe her ex-husband was a cop and she wants the same kind of gun he carried as a back-up?

Maybe she truly knows nothing about guns, but she went to a website like GeorgiaPacking and fifty guys told her to buy a Glock 27 with night sights and a New York trigger. So she walks into the gun store and asks for that one particular gun.
 

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gunsmoker said:
How would it be any different for a woman to come into a gun store and ask for a very specific model and caliber of gun compared to a man doing the same thing?
Do you assume that all women are newbies who never learned anything about guns on their own?
And men are just naturally infused with this knowledge at birth, including what the different frame sizes for S&W revolvers are called and which calibers are available for the 1911 platform?

Maybe the woman in question did some online research? Maybe she grew up in a family with guns? Maybe her ex-husband was a cop and she wants the same kind of gun he carried as a back-up?

Maybe she truly knows nothing about guns, but she went to a website like GeorgiaPacking and fifty guys told her to buy a Glock 27 with night sights and a New York trigger. So she walks into the gun store and asks for that one particular gun.
Those are all very articulate and well thought out arguments GS...BUT (in thew real world) we, the gun sales guys of the world, are the ones who will end up in jail if it is a straw purchase. We cannot claim ignorance or "it's not MY job" because it is our job and we have to take everything with a dumptruck load of doubt.
 

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mathar1 said:
Those are all very articulate and well thought out arguments GS...BUT (in thew real world) we, the gun sales guys of the world, are the ones who will end up in jail if it is a straw purchase. We cannot claim ignorance or "it's not MY job" because it is our job and we have to take everything with a dumptruck load of doubt.
I'm not disputing you Mathar, but am I the only one who finds something downright, I don't know... insidious about that?

If you are an intentional "straw seller" that's one thing. But how can you be expected to "read the mind" of a "straw purchaser". If everything is in accordance with the law then how can the seller be held responsible for an illegal purchase? It just isn't right and it doesn't make any sense.

If you've proceeded in accordance with the law (4473, NIC check, etc) then what is it you've done wrong?

If the law as written isn't effective at preventing this "pre-crime" or is ineffective at preventing a straw purchaser from making a straw purchase, then what is the point of having the law in the first place? Holding the seller accountable for a failure in the law's effectiveness is like putting a car dealer in jail because people keep speeding.

:screwy:
 

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CoffeeMate said:
mathar1 said:
Those are all very articulate and well thought out arguments GS...BUT (in thew real world) we, the gun sales guys of the world, are the ones who will end up in jail if it is a straw purchase. We cannot claim ignorance or "it's not MY job" because it is our job and we have to take everything with a dumptruck load of doubt.
I'm not disputing you Mathar, but am I the only one who finds something downright, I don't know... insidious about that?

If you are an intentional "straw seller" that's one thing. But how can you be expected to "read the mind" of a "straw purchaser". If everything is in accordance with the law then how can the seller be held responsible for an illegal purchase? It just isn't right and it doesn't make any sense.

If you've proceeded in accordance with the law (4473, NIC check, etc) then what is it you've done wrong?

If the law as written isn't effective at preventing this "pre-crime" or is ineffective at preventing a straw purchaser from making a straw purchase, then what is the point of having the law in the first place? Holding the seller accountable for a failure in the law's effectiveness is like putting a car dealer in jail because people keep speeding.

:screwy:
I thoroughly agree CM. We actually ARE protected if we can show ANY reasonable doubt as to why we should NOT sell you a gun but we basically have NO protection if we simply follow the law and it turns out to be an "obvious" straw purchase. (Their definition of obvious is NOT even remotely the same as a reasonable human beings)
 
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