New AP Ammo That Does Not Fit Current Definition of AP

Discussion in 'Ammo' started by Phil1979, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Phil1979

    Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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  2. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of the merits or lack of them of this project, the fact remains that no matter how many "gun control" laws get put on the books, new technology will always find a way around them.
     

  3. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Well, in this case it looks like it took over 30 years for "new technology" to exploit the then-unknown loophole in the federal armor-piercing handgun bullet law.

    QUOTE from OP's article: ...the Dagny Dagger project will develop a new type of legally-unrestricted handgun ammunition, which in 9mm Luger is easily able to penetrate all soft body armor and some rifle-rated hard armor. This will allow citizens the first legal access to armor-penetrating bullets since 1986.

    It looks like if the public finds out about this, it will bring new federal restrictions. Maybe a new law in the U.S. Code, title 18, section 922? Maybe just a new working definition of what AP really is, based on performance and not the type of materials used in a bullet's construction? (Remember how the bump stock / slidefire stock thing went)?
    This is bad.

    And I WANT the loophole closed. I don't want to see the public being able to buy, easily at retail, ammo that lets ordinary caliber handguns like 9mm and .40 and .357 mag blast bullets through common soft body armor worn by police, which I suppose today is now mostly class IIIA, whereas in the past Class II or IIA were standard.
     
  4. atlsrt44

    atlsrt44 Well-Known Member

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    What was that ammo in the early 90s they said was killing cops and banned?
     
  5. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    You referring to the cop killer Winchester stuff called Black Talon?

    IIRC it was basically a hollow point with a pin centered in the hollow so when it expanded it looked pretty much like a torque converter for an older chevrolet. The pin was to make it capable of penetrating body armor and teh size cut way way big holes in cops.

    See link below if you are not sure what the torque converter I refer to looks like after firing and hitting something fleshy.

    Nemo

    https://www.monstertransmission.com/TH400-Torque-Converter-1350-Stall-Heavy-Duty-6-Lug_p_6366.html
     
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  6. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Black Talon was never banned. They changed their marketing to market it to law enforcement agencies. I carried the .40 in 180 grain for years. Cops at my agency killed a few persons with it. In order to change the image, Winchester colored it brown and sold it to the general public as the "Ranger" or something that did not sound so sinister, as the Blaaaack Taaaalon, which unsheathes its deadly claws . . .
     
  7. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Then there was the Rhino or something that turned out to be a hoax.
     
  8. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Never made sense to me when every rifle round will punch straight through, front and back.

    And that sure would have come in handy if you were trying to escape New Orleans on the Danzinger Bridge, and cops in soft body armor decided to murder you, wouldn't it?
     
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  9. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    It would also come in handy if you are in the bank and a robber (or two) in a ballistic vest decided to rob the place.

    I know many of you claim you will simply stand by in such situations, but I am just not wired that way. It would be nice to have the option to puncture ballistic vests without giving up expansion in soft tissue (the main problem with current designs).

    I will say I have my doubts that they can accomplish both. They will have to compromise somewhere.
     
  10. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Rifles or bottle-necked rifle cartridges fired from AR and AK pattern pistols make up what percent of murder weapons? 5% maybe?

    I don’t want the other 95% of killers’ guns to have cop-killer ammo loaded in them.
     
  11. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    I don’t plan on killing any L.E.O., and I wouldn’t buy or carry cop-killer bullets on the one in a million chance that a rouge cop would try to murder me.
     
  12. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    No armor piercing handgun ammo has ever been used to shoot though a cop’s vest and kill the officer. It never happened once, as far as I know.

    But the AP ammo that got most of the publicity in the 1980’s was the KTW brand, made since the late 1960’s in Ohio. It featured extra hard bullets (bronze, brass, or steel) and a green colored Teflon coating. KTW was an American firm based in Ohio, and it was founded by two cops and a coroner. They developed this ammo for police use only, to allow cops to shoot thru car body panels that bad guys would use for cover.
     
  13. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    DEF3851E-2419-4D21-A8EA-4D92ECDEFE51.png Pic of various KTW rounds, with Teflon coated green bullets.

    Note the bullets are not very pointy.

    Other companies’ versions of AP pistol ammo did have sharp points, like the famous French “Arcane” ammo.
     
  14. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't want murderers (I assume that is what you meant, not killers) to have any guns or even to be out in public among us, but I am not going to ban all guns because of that. Your logic is not good, or it is good but leads to bad places, and you haven't thought through the consequences of your own ideas very thoroughly.
     
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  15. phantoms

    phantoms Senior Mumbler

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    5.7 got a lot of press too.

    Fnh has a few law enforcement only rounds that are AP. They also have a little 27grain civilian load that will penetrate body armor regularly. That little thing is flying at over 2200fps.
     
  16. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    Liberty Ammunition makes several barrier blind loadings that come close to being "armor piercing" without breaking any laws. Bullets are a copper/zinc material, very light and very fast. For example, their 9mm load is a 50gr bullet traveling at over 2,000 fps. Penetrates automobile sheet metal and laminated glass. My current carry load is Speer 124gr +P at 1,200fps.

    https://libertyammo.com/product/civil-defense-9mm/
     
  17. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    If you have any feeling/indication that your adversary is wearing a ballistic vest, center mass shots are not going to be 100% viable if you're using a handgun. Especially if you're using "mundane" ammunition. Heads and hips. You know that.
     
  18. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    Even when they're trying to kill you and yours for no apparent reason? Killing cops or anyone else is not on my bucket list but seriously, your attitude may just get you killed. That one in a million chance is far greater than you might think.
     
  19. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Feet. Both of them. Then hands. Then work my way in, while asking them before each shot to rethink carefully the path they have chosen in life, and, after each shot, requesting an update on their current status of thought.

    I suppose that would get me in some sort of legal trouble, though :(
     
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  20. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    Yeah, if you are in a situation where you can ask the question you are not in a good situation to continue shooting.

    Nemo