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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have had some interesting times talking with my sister about firearms in the past. Last Christmas I was told I was not to come to her house with the family if I was going to carry my weapon. After some negotiation, she and I worked out an out of sight, out of mind agreement where if I deep concealed, she wouldnt ask if I had it. She is one that I have had other political issues with as well because she is ultra right and seems to lean into statist, where I am very Libertarian and do not lean right or left. Below is from a conversation I had with her through a chat this morning. Any suggestions on how I might be able to continue this with her?

Note... She is very religious, so don't try to attack the fact that God and Jesus were brought up in the discussion.
11:15 AM Karyn: what's a good website to find out voting records and/or political stance on issues (that won't be blocked here at school)
11:16 AM me: oohhh... one that wont be blocked at school? gimme a minute
11:17 AM Karyn: a nonpartisan one
11:20 AM me: These guys have been very unbiased in my opinion... see if you can see it
http://politifact.com/georgia/
the problem is that they dont cover everything
11:21 AM nor do they cover really any of the Libertarians
11:22 AM Karyn: ok well I probably won't be voting L because unlinke you I still do believe in voting for the lesser of two evils (even though it's still evil) because I can't "throw away" my vote
me: Project Vote Smart seems to be overloaded and wont load
11:23 AM I did not vote straight libertarian... I voted for some of them though
Karyn: yeah I tried that - it keeps saying there is an internet connection problem
11:24 AM me: GA has the runoff rule, so it gives some shielding to allow me to vote my conscious in more elections than i would be able to in another state
Some of the libertarians on my ballot dont deserve the job, so they didnt get my vote
11:25 AM Karyn: well I don't always vote straight republican, but mostly
me: If my only options were King Roy or Lets make a Deal... I would have abstained from the vote
I had to vote Monds
11:26 AM I know too much about the other two
That one is almost certain to go to run-off
11:27 AM Karyn: i know too much abouut them too, but as a teacher i will NEVER vote for Roy, but can't feel like my vote won't count and I know nothing about Monds' position on issues
11:28 AM me: in the case of the governors race, it will count. it is almost assured it will go to run-off because Monds is polling great for a third party. Him getting a good percentage would open up tons of options for third parties in future elections, and it would help the signal that the vote was not FOR the republicans, but AGAINST the Dependocrats
11:29 AM as far as I am concerned with Deal.... he is as bad or worse than King Roy... the only silver lining with him winning would be if he has to resign over some old issues and Cagle would become Govenor
11:31 AM Karyn: I like Cagle
me: he is a good guy, and he seems to have the peoples liberties in mind
Karyn: well you know gun issues are not big with me, but I like how he stands on other issues
11:33 AM me: he remembers my face and calls me by name. any politician that has to remember the constituancy will remember they have to vote for the people
I like him not just for gun issues....
but a politicians stance on the right to keep and bear shows a lot in how much they trust the populace to govern themselves
11:35 AM that is one of the reasons I look at that part so heavily first. If a politician feels the need to disarm the people, it means they do not trust those people with any of the rights granted by God.
11:37 AM Karyn: I don't believe God ever intended for us to have guns in the first place - except for hunting I don't think they are necessary, but the MO
11:38 AM I mean that is MO
11:39 AM me: I believe God did intend for us to be able to defend ourselves. It is even in the bible that if a person kills a man who breaks into his house that he should not be prosecuted for it. Jesus told the diciples to sell their cloaks to purchase swords to defend themselves. at the time a sword was the highest level of technology and mostly only used by the army.... not the citizenry.
11:41 AM since I also believe that God would not have allowed something to be created at all if he really didnt want it to exist.... guns exist, bad people have them, God condones one defending themselves, so I have them for that purpose
11:43 AM our countrys founding was based in the freedoms that are God given and supposed to be protected that were not being protected under the old rule. The right to speak your mind, the right to practice your religion unhindered, the right to personal property are all things that God has granted us.... the RTKBA is a private guarantee that there is one more obsacle for the government to infringe upon the others.
11:44 AM Karyn: but if we follow that logic then we would also say that God intended for us to have mustard gas, atom bombs, nuclear weapons, etc.
me: there is a difference between "intended" and "allowed"
11:45 AM Karyn: but you said "since I also believe that God would not have allowed something to be created at all if he really didnt want it to exist"
11:47 AM me: which means he allowed it. If he did not want it to exist, it would not. The materials wouldnt exist or the human mind would not be capable of doing it, or the physics just would not work.... If my God can create all existance, he could have decided not to make plutonium.
So he allowed it
11:48 AM since he provides that a person may defend themselves, then a person should defend themselves in a manner that is reasonable to level the playing field. I know a 97 pound woman who had to defend herself against a 230 pound man high on PCP.... a weapon leveld that playing field
11:49 AM Karyn: He allowed it - He allows us free will but it doesn't mean it's a good choice
11:50 AM me: of course... Just because you can, does not mean you should. But again. God providing that one can defend themself without consequence makes it so that one can do so against someone who has made a bad choice
11:52 AM Karyn: of course we can defend ourselves...I just don't want anyone to have handguns
me: the problem is that they exist... and that can never be undone
11:54 AM if a person who has already decided they are going to break the law (Gods and the States) and they are going to steal from you, rape you and kill you... what is to stop him from using a tool that makes it more efficient for him to do so. A person then needs the tools to try to survive against it. That person also already has the advantage that they are going into it with the knowledge that they are going to d something... you on the otherhand have no prior warning, so you have to have a tool that lets you respond quickly
11:59 AM Karyn: i know... it's just MO. That's why I won't vote based on handgun issues. Hey GTG. Thanks. TTYL
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

My advice: Stick to talking about the weather, family, etc.

My Father is a moron when it comes to family, so I stick to talking about the weather, guns, and politics. If I don't keep the conversation confined to those things then we wouldn't be talking much (or, I wouldn't be talking to him much).
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

Maybe it would be a better world if there were no weapons, as long as there were also no violent, dangerous, insane, or depraved people, either. But that is not the world we live in. God made those kinds of people also. He loves them, but that does not mean He wants them to prevail over His other children. He wants us to be able to protect ourselves and those we love from them, and He gave us the wherewithall to devise the ability to do so. Therefore, according to this belief, I carry to defend myself and those I love, which includes my non-gun-loving sister. I respect your right to your viewpoint, but this is mine.

Then, like AV8R says, talk about something else.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

I hate to be blunt, but when people start using the "I don't want anyone to have guns, I wish they'd never been invented" line, only a real-world experience is going to change their minds.

Priest, I think you presented your sister with a logical, level headed argument. Unfortunately her response was wishy-washy, pie in the sky. She refuses to acknowledge that any good can come from a weapon.

Have you ever used this approach?
- If you believe in God and a concept of a universal good, that "good" is a choice and all good stems from God, you must also believe in the existence of evil, the antithesis of good (how could "good" be measured unless a polar opposite exists?)
- Evil can exist without good, but because "good" is a choice, good cannot exist without evil
- Evil seeks to subvert & destroy that which is good
- If the good refuse to defend themselves against evil, evil will reign
- Thus weapons, when used to defend good against evil, are a tool of the good and serve to preserve the concept of what is good and Godly

After going through this, I just think your sister hasn't fully acknowledged the reality of evil. If she had, she would have no problem with good people being vigilant & defending against it. Instead, she's hung up solely on the idea that guns kill people.

I hope you can convince her with logic before something evil convinces her through brute force.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

When I speak to non-gun people, I often refer to a gun as a tool. The tool can have multiple purposes such as target shooting and self defense. How the tool is used always depends on the hands it is in. Some will use the tool for good, others will use it to commit crimes.

But yeah, when it comes to someone who says "I wish guns didn't exist".... I'd find it a little harder to respond with any kind of legitimate response. Maybe something along the lines of "well, airplanes shouldn't exist either then, cause they were once used to fly into the world trade center towers." :righton:
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

You can't rationalize with a person's irrational position on something.

If someone has actual thought about it and decided that they don't want to own a gun because they don't feel that they can manage the responsibility, won't take the time to learn and practice how to use it properly, etc. I have no problem with that. If they think something like 'God doesn't like guns and you're going to hell if you touch one', I'm not going to discuss the issue further with them - their position is based on some ideology/ideologue perspective and there is no constructive argument to be had there.

I think that you're wasting your time discussing it with her.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

RedDawnTheMusical said:
You can't rationalize with a person's irrational position on something.
:righton:

If they could use logic and reason to see your point of view, you wouldn't be having the discussion in the first place!
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

maybe you should talk to her about something she is more comfortable with, such as flowers and cupcakes.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

If she's not telling you what you should and shouldn't be doing, that is as much as you can hope for out of free will and consideration for/from others.

If or when her views change on gun ownership or if/when she has further questions about it, she'll track you down and ask. Until then, you are just some crazy standing out in the street screaming "the sky is blue" and she really isn't interested in the color at the moment and just finds the proclamations interrupting.

OTOH, if she is ever around and you can propose shooting skeet or something, that might be a good starting point to getting her to play with firearms...
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

Not sure which way you want to go. On one hand you love the person, so you want to educate them, on the other hand you love the person, so you want to let them live happily in line with their own views.

If you want to try and further justify the point of God and guns, there is a sermon I heard last year by a preacher by the name of John Weaver. Very smart guy, very well spoken. He did a sermon specifically on guns and the use of them. You were exactly right where you were leading with the "told to sell their cloaks to by a sword". He explained not only do we have a right, but we have a duty to protect ourselves as Christians. How much further will God's word spread if you are lying dead in a pool of your own blood, because you thought that you were meant to accept your fate of a home intruder or whatever taking your life. It makes sense to me, that if a person presents them self as a threat to me or my family, then I don't only have the right to protect them, but it is my duty to do so as a servant to the Lord.

He had a ton of sermons on this website, so I couldn't locate the exact sermon. I heard it at a L.O.T.S. meeting in South Georgia about a year ago. Check out some of his other sermons.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?c ... se&SortBy=
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

You're a better man than I, Priest. My sister and I would never have had this conversation because we wouldn't be on speaking terms had she presented me with the ultimatum your sister did about Christmas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

Paladin said:
You're a better man than I, Priest. My sister and I would never have had this conversation because we wouldn't be on speaking terms had she presented me with the ultimatum your sister did about Christmas.
I think the resolution came because Mom stepped in. I was staying at my parents house for the few days I was there. Mom asked what I was doing when packing up my bags and I told her that since the family was doing Christmas at Karyns house, and I was not welcome there, I was going to drive to McDonough where my Grandparents were celebrating Christmas and do so with them. The resolution came quickly after that.

Karyn is a sheeple.... she has been for a long time. Too long teaching in Gvt schools I guess.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

Priest said:
Too long teaching in Gvt schools I guess.
youll have that.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

Dang... she had 45 minutes at work to message you back and forth? I need to work she works so I can have that kind of free time. Govt workers get all the perks.

I don't know that I could have that conversation with my family. My Mom is an idiot about politics and I avoid any discussion about it all costs because it will just turn sour. It isn't that hard to find out information about politicians. You handled it well and obviously have more patience than me.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

I feel your pain man. I have two parents and a few friends that are exactly like this. I don't have any wisdom for you, but you're not alone.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

Priest, you are handleing this quite well.

Kiss you sister on the cheek when you see her, tell her you love her, and stear clear of any mention of guns, God, or politics. Leave it at that.

Until necessity changes her mind, and the change in opinion is hers, nothing will change.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

fmlaw1 said:
Priest, you are handleing this quite well.

Kiss you sister on the cheek when you see her, tell her you love her, and stear clear of any mention of guns, God, or politics. Leave it at that.

Until necessity changes her mind, and the change in opinion is hers, nothing will change.
If you notice.... she brought every single part up. She started the conversation, she brought up the "wasted vote", she brought up guns... She also knows I will not be silent when directly confronted with a "you are wrong" attitude like she did with the libertarian thing in this, or with weapons in the past.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

I simply won't "debate" issues with people that will not listen, consider opposing arguments, and honestly evaluate their position on their position. And I have no problem telling them that.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

Priest said:
If you notice.... she brought every single part up. She started the conversation, she brought up the "wasted vote", she brought up guns... She also knows I will not be silent when directly confronted with a "you are wrong" attitude like she did with the libertarian thing in this, or with weapons in the past.
Yup, I noticed. But, you have to decide if you want peace, or you want to "win."

She won't change her mind unless something tragic happens that brings all your words to reality for her, and she has a moment of clarity. She apparently will not be drug towards your direction. She knows what she knows, and there are some people like that.

It is for you to decide where you want to go, as you can't control (or apparently influence) what she believes. You can only control what YOU do.

For me, I would prefer to spend my emotional capital elswhere. YMMV. I hope you find what works for you.
 

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Re: It still goes on with my sister and firearms

Religion has nothing to do with it.

A while back, I gave a GCO presentation to 27 members of a neighboring church. The pastor, in essence, gave all of them an order to join GCO. He, and his parishioners in attendance (plus one gal), were hot about being denied the right to carry in church.

With your sister, you have to pick your battles. If she brings up guns, tell her you love her, but you're just not going to discuss them with her again. Simply tell her that a Baptist minister, along with GCO, has brought the suit to allow carry in churches, so it's clear this is more than a religious, or a conservative vs liberal issue. It's a matter of personal preference. She prefers not knowing about guns. You'd prefer not arguing with a sister you love.
 
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