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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Why would anyone choose the shotgun for defense?

590A1 and AR15 differences, respectively:

  • 8rds of manual vs. 30rds of semi auto fire.
  • 12 second vs. 2 second reloads.
  • 75yd vs. 300yd range.
  • 7.25lbs vs. 6.4lbs.
Does this make any sense?

*You can get an AK47 for the same price if reliability is your argument against the AR15.


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Because Joe Biden said so.
 
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*You can get an AK for the same price if reliability is your argument.
You mean AR as in the pic and price you posted?

I think there is some false idea that you don't have to really aim a shotgun. It's just one of the bad gun "facts" that gets repeated by people like Creepy Joe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
You mean AR as in the pic and price you posted?

I think there is some false idea that you don't have to really aim a shotgun. It's just one of the bad gun "facts" that gets repeated by people like Creepy Joe.
No, AK47. It was only a matter of time before someone would say how perfectly reliable the shotgun was over the AR15. So, I'm saying you can buy an AK47 for the same price as the shotgun if reliability was someone's argument against choosing the AR15.
 

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No, AK47. It was only a matter of time before someone would say how perfectly reliable the shotgun was over the AR15. So, I'm saying you can buy an AK47 for the same price as the shotgun if reliability was someone's argument against choosing the AR15.
Gotcha. I don't own a shotgun, so I'm in the same camp on 'why' for defense.
 

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Because a solid hit with 12 load of 00 or 000 or to #1 should resolve the issue totally and substantially quicker than a single 5.56 hit. Smaller chance of being involved in a viewpoint based argument.

A 12ga will be less penetrative on walls and neighbors houses than the 5.56.

A 12ga will be less of an "OMG, he had an EBR" argument point for the prosecutor and point of note to the jury. You can always pull out the Joe Biden said so point.

Nemo
 
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Newtons 3rd law is what I go with. Which has more recoil on your shoulder a 5.56 or 3" 12ga. 1oz from a 12 ga will have more impact on a target at defense distances. Plus the 00 will dump most if not all energy into a torso vs 5.56 will most likely pass through the target.
 

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Make sure you use rather big shot also. Notice the effects of shotgun rounds.

Nemo

 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

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The 12 was one less board. :D I was talking about with a hit on target. The 9 pellets in 00 should have less penetration than a full metal jacket that most people have in their ar. Plus I don't have an ar, yet. But I do have an 835 and a stoger side by side.
 

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Well, in defense of the shotgun, it does offer a greater flexibility in the rounds that it is capable of firing - everything from slugs that will be devastating no matter they hit to less lethal/non-lethal flexible baton rounds (bean bag rounds) if that's your thing.

Personally I'm not comfortable clearing rooms with a long gun. It maybe just a lack of practice, but I find it easier to clear using a pistol in a C.A.R. grip. I do have a Mossberg that sits in the corner of the bedroom that I can slung over my shoulder for more firepower. I leave that out as I don't take it shooting as often. The setup is different as well as my Savage Recon AR equipped with a 1-6x red dot scope for distance whereas the Mossberg pump has a light/laser combo for CQB.
 

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Why would anyone choose the shotgun for defense?
The shotgun has its niche - 0-75 yards - and is superior to a handgun or rifle in it. Like any firearm it needs to be aimed. Shooting from the hip is a range game. In simple terms, a shotgun will allow you a bit of leeway in a not-so-perfectly aimed shot, especially under stress. Any pellets not hitting the target will be of far less concern downrange opposed to some rifle or handgun bullet that misses and travels on for a substantial distance. A single shotgun wound itself is usually going to be more devastating than a single bullet wound.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The shotgun has its niche - 0-75 yards - and is superior to a handgun or rifle in it.
I disagree about the rifle part, especially if you factor in 7.62x39 ammo from an AK47.
5.56 is totally devastating under 125 yards; at the same distances 7.62x39 is even worse. Even if you think 5.56 or 7.62x39 at close range is weak, you can always double-tap and still have 28 rounds of semi-auto fire left. A shotgun even at close range does not measure up to the many advantages an AR15 or AK47 offers for the same price.
 

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For the same price...a few years ago(possibly last year can't remember) when Wal-Mart was clearancing all of their "tactical" weapons they had a Stevens pardner shotgun I picked up for $68, the cheapest AR's they had were diamond back arms for $350, so for the same price I'll take the 12Ga I got.
 

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I don't think the 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot has a proven history of being any better as a manstopper than a SOFT POINT or other expanding bullet in .223, or 7.62 x39.
Don't compare FMJ ammo in the rifles to buckshot in the scatterguns.
 

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Per this partial reproduction of Evan Marshall's results for what percent of good center-of-mass hits with a single shot gave a one-shot stop in real-life shootings, most of the top performing round were RIFLE rounds, with expanding bullets.

Federal 308 168 gr Match 112 shooting in study 98%

Remington 223 69 gr JHP 40 shootings in study 98%
Federal 357 Magnum 125 gr JHP 641 shootings in study 96%
Federal 45 ACP 230 gr HS 173 shootings in study 96%
PMC 30-30 150 gr SF 44 shootings in study 95%

Website: http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/669
 

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Apparently the Marshall/Sanow study from the 1980s only looked at handguns and the most popular caliber of police rifles. Not shotguns.

This other person did his own study that included rifles and shotguns, but he lumped all centerfire rifle calibers together, regardless of bullet type, and ditto for shotguns. All gauges were added into the database, all loads from #9 birdshot to 1-oz. slugs and everything in between.

This study showed that shotguns were a little better than rifles, and rifles were a little better than .32 caliber pistols, and all other centerfire handgun calibers were not quite as good as .32 calibers!

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Maybe we should consider that .32 performace a fluke as there were only 25 shootings involving that caliber that were part of this study. Only the .32 and the .44 Magnum had such a small number of incidents; all other calibers had approx. 100 to 400 shootings in the database.

BOTTOM LINE:
I think of 12 and 20 gauge shotguns with buckshot, or slugs, as being equally good manstoppers as .223 or 7.62 x39 carbines at typical home defense distances.
If there's any difference in their lethality, it's not much. Not enough to worry about.
Recoil, ammo capacity in the firearm, range, and the speed of reloading are all more important, and ALL of those factors favor the rifle calibers.

That being said, I've owned a number of combat shotguns that only held 5, 6, or 8 rounds. One of them I will still occasionally prop in the corner of my bedroom for home defense and to deal with things that go bump in the night.
I don't feel I 'need' a 30-round magazine.
But, intellecutally and rationally, I think a CAR-15 with a 20 or 30 round mag and a good flash suppressor (or silencer) beats a shotgun as a defensive long gun.
 

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Whichever way you look at it, I strongly suspect 9 or 12 or more wound channels from a buckshot round will be substantially more traumatic on a body than a one or 2 from a 223.

Nemo
 

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I disagree about the rifle part, especially if you factor in 7.62x39 ammo from an AK47.
5.56 is totally devastating under 125 yards; at the same distances 7.62x39 is even worse. Even if you think 5.56 or 7.62x39 at close range is weak, you can always double-tap and still have 28 rounds of semi-auto fire left. A shotgun even at close range does not measure up to the many advantages an AR15 or AK47 offers for the same price.
You're missing my point and you've changed the scenario. A shotgun isn't a 125 yard weapon, even with slugs unless you're hunting. Eight rounds of 12 ga buckshot in a few seconds is a lot of lead sent downrange. When it runs dry you transition to your pistol or rifle. It's a niche weapon and you have to know its limitations. I'm not anti 5.56. It's my primary caliber.
 

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Whichever way you look at it, I strongly suspect 9 or 12 or more wound channels from a buckshot round will be substantially more traumatic on a body than a one or 2 from a 223.

Nemo
Lots of people have survived multiple pistol or rifle wounds. Multiple shotgun wounds not so much.
 
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