[GAGunOwner]

I got in a debate with someone who was in law enforcement. I said that you are more likely to have a crime committed against you by a GA LEO than by a GFL holder. Do you have the stats about this? Seems like this was being floated around here for awhile. I think we had the stats for Texas or something.

Anyway, he disagreed because he said that they don't check for the GFL when someone is arrested/convicted, especially if the crime is non-gun related. And that the part of the law calling for revocations is pretty much ignored. He's never heard of anyone having their GFL revoked.

I said, "Because they don't commit crimes." He said, "There is no database for GFLs so there is no way to be sure."

He said that unless someone tells the court, nobody will be sent to pick up your GFL, or even know you have one. He said they would prevent you from being able to renue though (we know this already).

His argument is basically that GFL holders probably commit more crimes than we know of and that they are undereported because nobody checks to see if criminals have them.

 

[budder]

His argument is basically that GFL holders probably commit more crimes than we know of and that they are undereported because nobody checks to see if criminals have them.

Well, sure. He has a good point. We can't get the numbers though, since cop crimes are probably also underreported.

I think GFL holders commit fewer crimes, but I'm just guessing.

 

[1911packer]

I would think GFLers are more law abiding than the general population.

What percentage have had their GFL revoked because they committed a crime?

How many GFLers unwittingly break the law because they can't keep up with or understand all the restrictions?

 

[GAGunOwner]

I would think GFLers are more law abiding than the general population.

No doubt in my mind.

What percentage have had their GFL revoked because they committed a crime?

I'd love to know how many are revoked and how many should be revoked that are not (we'll never know the second part of this).

How many GFLers unwittingly break the law because they can't keep up with or understand all the restrictions?

I do not know for certain but I do not believe that many GFL holders are arrested due to GA's carry laws. They are law abiding and do not draw attention to themselves. If they are discovered LEOs probably cut them some slack. And lastly, GFL holders try to follow the state's carry laws.

 

[1911packer]

And lastly, GFL holders try to follow the state's carry laws.

That can be a tall order. Hopefully, GCO can work toward cleaning up the messy code.

 

[fallison]

I would think GFLers are more law abiding than the general population.

No doubt in my mind.

[quote:19c1a470]What percentage have had their GFL revoked because they committed a crime?

I'd love to know how many are revoked and how many should be revoked that are not (we'll never know the second part of this).

How many GFLers unwittingly break the law because they can't keep up with or understand all the restrictions?

I do not know for certain but I do not believe that many GFL holders are arrested due to GA's carry laws. They are law abiding and do not draw attention to themselves. If they are discovered LEOs probably cut them some slack. And lastly, GFL holders try to follow the state's carry laws.[/quote:19c1a470]

This can be interpolated by looking at the number of renewals that are denied due to background check findings. If something pops on the renewal, most likely it should have led to revokation.

Now if we could just see some numbers.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

The numbers DO exist in other states.

I do not know whether the numbers exist in Georgia, but I would not be surprised to find out that they exist or that they can be compiled from available sources.

All of the criticisms your LEO friend levels at the unreliability of numbers for GFL holders can be levelled right back at him for the reliability of the numbers of LEOs.

And what crimes is it with which we are concerned? Really, the concern by the politicians and public is that firearms licenses are not issued to GFL holders to carry a gun in public who will then go and use that gun violently against the public. Right?

If THAT happened, it would be news.

Although I cannot point to a study of actual numbers in Georgia (although, as you recognized, such breakdowns are available for other states), my personal (anecdotal) experience is as follows. I personally know a LOT of LEOS and a LOT of Georgia firearms license holders. I know police officers who have committed murder, armed robbery, and burglary. I know police officers who have committed other crimes as well. These are people I personally know, not people about whom I read a story in the newspaper. I do not know a single Georgia firearms license holder who has committed any of the crimes I have listed above. Not one.

But who knows? Maybe a real study will show that my anecdotal evidence is an anomaly.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I got in a debate with someone who was in law enforcement. I said that you are more likely to have a crime committed against you by a GA LEO than by a GFL holder.

Why are you having this conversation? Does your friend think he is "special" and should be allowed to carry a firearm while you and I should not? Or that he can be trusted to carry into certain places where you and I cannot? Places where people carry in other states with no issues?

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Since adopting CCW (1987), Florida's homicide rate has fallen 21% while the U.S. rate has risen 12%. From start-up 10/1/87
- 2/28/94 (over 6 yrs.) Florida issued 204,108 permits; only 17 (0.008%) were revoked because permittees later committed crimes (not necessarily violent) in which guns were present (not necessarily used).

- Of 14,000 CCW licensees in Oregon, only 4 (0.03%) were convicted of the criminal (not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.

More on Florida:

Two hundred permits (less than one-tenth of 1%) have been revoked because a permit holder committed some kind of a crime, though not necessarily a gun-related or violent crime. Only 18 (less than 0.008%) permits have been revoked because a permit holder committed a crime (not necessarily violent) in which a firearm was present, though not necessarily used.

http://rkba.org/ccw/stat

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Both of these are based on the "Concealed Weapons / Firearms License
Statistical Report for the Period 10/01/87 - 10/31/91" issued by:

Florida Department of State's Division of Licensing
P.O. Box 6687,
Tallahassee, FL 32314-6687

This one-page report states as follows:

112,528 Applications Received

85,662 New
26,866 Renewal

109,377 Licenses Issued

82,756 New
26,621 Renewal


768 Applications Denied

446 Criminal History
302 Incomplete Application


167 Licenses Revoked

66 Clemency rule change or legislative change
77 Crime after licensure (10 = firearm utilized)
6 Crime prior to licensure (2 = firearm utilized)
10 Illegible prints with no response
8 Other

12 Reinstated (no statistics maintained prior to Jan. '90)

----------- These stats are the sum total of the report ------------

What this amounts to is the following good news:

167 licenses revoked = .15% (one-sixth of 1%) of licenses issued

i.e. 15 in 10,000 licenses were revoked

77 licenses revoked for a crime after licensure = .07% (seven hundreths of 1%)

i.e. only 7 in 10,000 licenses were revoked for a crime

10 licenses revoked for crime with a gun = .009%

i.e. less than 1 in 10,000 licenses were revoked for a crime with a gun

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Here is 1999-2007 in Florida

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

From that, here are the numbers for revocation over 20 years.
Revoked for:
Crime After Licensure 3,311
--Firearm Utilized-- [162]
Reinstated* 491

*Resinstatement numbers are only since 1990

These numbers are from 1,274,367 licenses issued over that period. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing how many of the 162 "crimes utilizing a firearm" were part of the 491 reinstatements. An arrest relating to a homicide with a firearm would result in revocation, but a finding of self defense would result in reinstatement.

 

[GAGunOwner]

I got in a debate with someone who was in law enforcement. I said that you are more likely to have a crime committed against you by a GA LEO than by a GFL holder.

Why are you having this conversation? Does your friend think he is "special" and should be allowed to carry a firearm while you and I should not? Or that he can be trusted to carry into certain places where you and I cannot? Places where people carry in other states with no issues?

Nah, he wants it better for everyone. He's one of us. We were actually talking about how the school zone law needs to be done away with. :lol: We were just having the debate for the sake of debate. He just didn't believe that GFL holders were more law abiding than GA LEOs.

I asked him when was the last time that you heard of a GFL holder committing a driveby shooting? Then I asked him to remember those LEOs who did it in Towns County awhile back. His response was that GFL holders might be doing such things (like LEOs) but that nobody ever knows if they have a GFL.

He did admit that GFL holders are more law abiding than the general population. He also stated that many of the serious crimes that LEOs get popped with are due to their job and not out of evil. For example, the Atlanta Cops that killed Ms. Johnson went to jail but they didn't decide to kill her for the sake of evil, it was a result of their job that went bad.

 

[legacy38]

I seriously doubt that there is any statistically significant difference.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I asked him when was the last time that you heard of a GFL holder committing a driveby shooting?

:lol:

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Using the provocative title "License to Kill," the Violence Policy Center recently released a report claiming that "those who do carry concealed handguns get into trouble more often than other Texans."

While there is cause to wonder whether the Violence Policy Center over reported the number of permit holders arrested, even its own numbers don't justify that claim. During 1996 and 1997, the first two years that the concealed handgun law was in effect, 163,096 people were licensed. During that period, 263 license holders were arrested for felony offenses, and another 683 were arrested for misdemeanor offenses. By comparison, if permit holders had been arrested at the same rate as the average adult Texan, they would have had 731 arrests for violence crimes and 2,202 for property crimes. Thus, permit holders were about a third as likely to be arrested as non-permit holders and much less likely to commit serious crimes.

The public's ultimate concern is whether permit holders have used their concealed handguns improperly. So let's look at some more statistics to determine that.

During 1996 and 1997, five permit holders were arrested for felonies involving the "deadly conduct/discharge of a firearm" and another two for the "deadly conduct/display of a firearm." Those charges were brought in connection with four deaths. If permit holders had been arrested for murder at the same rate as other adult Texans, 56 would have been arrested.

Equally important, relying on arrest rates misses an important difference between permit holders and others who are arrested for murder. While the vast majority of murder arrests end in conviction, that hasn't been true for permit holders.

Of the four deaths mentioned, none has resulted in a conviction. In fact, two so far have been cleared and deemed to have acted in self-defense.

So far in Virginia, not a single Virginia permit holder has been involved in a violent crime. Similar results have been observed in Kentucky, Nevada, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee and other states for which detailed records are available.

In December, Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association, summed up the typical reaction of those police officers who opposed the concealed handgun law before its adoption: "I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened. All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. No bogeyman. I think it has worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I am a convert."

Harris County District Attorney John Holmes admitted he is "eating a lot of crow on this issue. It isn't something I necessarily like to do, but I am doing it on this."

John Lott

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I got in a debate with someone who was in law enforcement. I said that you are more likely to have a crime committed against you by a GA LEO than by a GFL holder. Do you have the stats about this? Seems like this was being floated around here for awhile. I think we had the stats for Texas or something.

Anyway, he disagreed because he said that they don't check for the GFL when someone is arrested/convicted, especially if the crime is non-gun related. And that the part of the law calling for revocations is pretty much ignored. He's never heard of anyone having their GFL revoked.

I said, "Because they don't commit crimes." He said, "There is no database for GFLs so there is no way to be sure."

He said that unless someone tells the court, nobody will be sent to pick up your GFL, or even know you have one. He said they would prevent you from being able to renue though (we know this already).

His argument is basically that GFL holders probably commit more crimes than we know of and that they are undereported because nobody checks to see if criminals have them.

But they do have mistaken shootings. About 330 per year, according to John Lott. Firearms license holders kill about 30, according to the same source. Of course, police officers are forced to interject themselves into confusing and dangerous situations. On the other hand, they are far outnumbered by non-police officers.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Texas License Holder Crime Records

 

[budder]

From MP's post

Harris County District Attorney John Holmes admitted he is "eating a lot of crow on this issue. It isn't something I necessarily like to do, but I am doing it on this."

He may have changed his mind, but the current guy (Rosenthal) is the exact opposite. He wants everyone pulled over with a gun to be arrested so that the courts can decide whether or not they were covered by the "traveling" clause. Fortunately, I was never pulled over by HPD on my weekly range trips.

 

[wsweeks2]

For example, the Atlanta Cops that killed Ms. Johnson went to jail but they didn't decide to kill her for the sake of evil, it was a result of their job that went bad.

Blatantly lying to obtain a warrant isn't for the sake of evil? That wasn't a good faith action and they all know it.