More law abiding: LEOs or GFL holders?

Discussion in 'General GWL Questions' started by GAGunOwner, Sep 29, 2007.

  1. GAGunOwner

    GAGunOwner Active Member

    I got in a debate with someone who was in law enforcement. I said that you are more likely to have a crime committed against you by a GA LEO than by a GFL holder. Do you have the stats about this? Seems like this was being floated around here for awhile. I think we had the stats for Texas or something.

    Anyway, he disagreed because he said that they don't check for the GFL when someone is arrested/convicted, especially if the crime is non-gun related. And that the part of the law calling for revocations is pretty much ignored. He's never heard of anyone having their GFL revoked.

    I said, "Because they don't commit crimes." He said, "There is no database for GFLs so there is no way to be sure."

    He said that unless someone tells the court, nobody will be sent to pick up your GFL, or even know you have one. He said they would prevent you from being able to renue though (we know this already).

    His argument is basically that GFL holders probably commit more crimes than we know of and that they are undereported because nobody checks to see if criminals have them.
     
  2. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    Well, sure. He has a good point. We can't get the numbers though, since cop crimes are probably also underreported.

    I think GFL holders commit fewer crimes, but I'm just guessing.
     

  3. 1911packer

    1911packer Guest

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    I would think GFLers are more law abiding than the general population.

    What percentage have had their GFL revoked because they committed a crime?

    How many GFLers unwittingly break the law because they can't keep up with or understand all the restrictions?
     
  4. GAGunOwner

    GAGunOwner Active Member

    No doubt in my mind.

    I'd love to know how many are revoked and how many should be revoked that are not (we'll never know the second part of this).

    I do not know for certain but I do not believe that many GFL holders are arrested due to GA's carry laws. They are law abiding and do not draw attention to themselves. If they are discovered LEOs probably cut them some slack. And lastly, GFL holders try to follow the state's carry laws.
     
  5. 1911packer

    1911packer Guest

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    That can be a tall order. Hopefully, GCO can work toward cleaning up the messy code.
     
  6. fallison

    fallison Guest

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    I'd love to know how many are revoked and how many should be revoked that are not (we'll never know the second part of this).

    I do not know for certain but I do not believe that many GFL holders are arrested due to GA's carry laws. They are law abiding and do not draw attention to themselves. If they are discovered LEOs probably cut them some slack. And lastly, GFL holders try to follow the state's carry laws.[/quote:19c1a470]

    This can be interpolated by looking at the number of renewals that are denied due to background check findings. If something pops on the renewal, most likely it should have led to revokation.

    Now if we could just see some numbers.
     
  7. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    The numbers DO exist in other states.

    I do not know whether the numbers exist in Georgia, but I would not be surprised to find out that they exist or that they can be compiled from available sources.

    All of the criticisms your LEO friend levels at the unreliability of numbers for GFL holders can be levelled right back at him for the reliability of the numbers of LEOs.

    And what crimes is it with which we are concerned? Really, the concern by the politicians and public is that firearms licenses are not issued to GFL holders to carry a gun in public who will then go and use that gun violently against the public. Right?

    If THAT happened, it would be news.

    Although I cannot point to a study of actual numbers in Georgia (although, as you recognized, such breakdowns are available for other states), my personal (anecdotal) experience is as follows. I personally know a LOT of LEOS and a LOT of Georgia firearms license holders. I know police officers who have committed murder, armed robbery, and burglary. I know police officers who have committed other crimes as well. These are people I personally know, not people about whom I read a story in the newspaper. I do not know a single Georgia firearms license holder who has committed any of the crimes I have listed above. Not one.

    But who knows? Maybe a real study will show that my anecdotal evidence is an anomaly.
     
  8. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Why are you having this conversation? Does your friend think he is "special" and should be allowed to carry a firearm while you and I should not? Or that he can be trusted to carry into certain places where you and I cannot? Places where people carry in other states with no issues?
     
  9. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    More on Florida:

    http://rkba.org/ccw/stat
     
  10. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Both of these are based on the "Concealed Weapons / Firearms License
    Statistical Report for the Period 10/01/87 - 10/31/91" issued by:

    Florida Department of State's Division of Licensing
    P.O. Box 6687,
    Tallahassee, FL 32314-6687

    This one-page report states as follows:

    112,528 Applications Received

    85,662 New
    26,866 Renewal

    109,377 Licenses Issued

    82,756 New
    26,621 Renewal


    768 Applications Denied

    446 Criminal History
    302 Incomplete Application


    167 Licenses Revoked

    66 Clemency rule change or legislative change
    77 Crime after licensure (10 = firearm utilized)
    6 Crime prior to licensure (2 = firearm utilized)
    10 Illegible prints with no response
    8 Other

    12 Reinstated (no statistics maintained prior to Jan. '90)

    ----------- These stats are the sum total of the report ------------

    What this amounts to is the following good news:

    167 licenses revoked = .15% (one-sixth of 1%) of licenses issued

    i.e. 15 in 10,000 licenses were revoked

    77 licenses revoked for a crime after licensure = .07% (seven hundreths of 1%)

    i.e. only 7 in 10,000 licenses were revoked for a crime

    10 licenses revoked for crime with a gun = .009%

    i.e. less than 1 in 10,000 licenses were revoked for a crime with a gun
     
  11. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    From that, here are the numbers for revocation over 20 years.
    Revoked for:
    Crime After Licensure 3,311
    --Firearm Utilized-- [162]
    Reinstated* 491


    *Resinstatement numbers are only since 1990


    These numbers are from 1,274,367 licenses issued over that period. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing how many of the 162 "crimes utilizing a firearm" were part of the 491 reinstatements. An arrest relating to a homicide with a firearm would result in revocation, but a finding of self defense would result in reinstatement.
     
  12. GAGunOwner

    GAGunOwner Active Member

    Nah, he wants it better for everyone. He's one of us. We were actually talking about how the school zone law needs to be done away with. :lol: We were just having the debate for the sake of debate. He just didn't believe that GFL holders were more law abiding than GA LEOs.

    I asked him when was the last time that you heard of a GFL holder committing a driveby shooting? Then I asked him to remember those LEOs who did it in Towns County awhile back. His response was that GFL holders might be doing such things (like LEOs) but that nobody ever knows if they have a GFL.

    He did admit that GFL holders are more law abiding than the general population. He also stated that many of the serious crimes that LEOs get popped with are due to their job and not out of evil. For example, the Atlanta Cops that killed Ms. Johnson went to jail but they didn't decide to kill her for the sake of evil, it was a result of their job that went bad.
     
  13. legacy38

    legacy38 Well-Known Member

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    I seriously doubt that there is any statistically significant difference.
     
  14. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    :lol:
     
  15. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    John Lott
     
  16. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    But they do have mistaken shootings. About 330 per year, according to John Lott. Firearms license holders kill about 30, according to the same source. Of course, police officers are forced to interject themselves into confusing and dangerous situations. On the other hand, they are far outnumbered by non-police officers.
     
  17. budder

    budder Moderator Staff Member

    From MP's post
    He may have changed his mind, but the current guy (Rosenthal) is the exact opposite. He wants everyone pulled over with a gun to be arrested so that the courts can decide whether or not they were covered by the "traveling" clause. Fortunately, I was never pulled over by HPD on my weekly range trips.
     
  18. wsweeks2

    wsweeks2 New Member

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    Blatantly lying to obtain a warrant isn't for the sake of evil? That wasn't a good faith action and they all know it.