Mike's Idea For A New Licensing Process

Discussion in 'GA Laws and Politics' started by Mike from Philly, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. Mike from Philly

    Mike from Philly New Member

    Here is an alternative to HB850. This alternative makes the issuance of a license immediate. This alternative gives citizens a venue to challenge the judges and the information they are relying on. Also, it modifies Georgia law so it conforms with the NRA's bill (HR2640).

    My guiding philosophy was:

    1) A woman being stalked by an ex boyfriend should not have to wait 6 months for the Probate Judge to approve her application. She needs a License immediately.

    2) A new resident should get a License as quick as he can get a drivers license

    3) Georgia ID’s are used in interactions with Law Enforcement, private enterprises, and with the Federal Government. Those ID’s are the de-facto standard for proving your identity.

    4) We must all be equal before the law. Government employees should not be exempt from the law that applies to We, The People.

    5) Need to address our system to comply with the NRAâ€s bill (HR2640) and allow people to challenge thier rejections.

    6) I continued with the Probate Judge issuing the licenses. I do think an office in the Executive branch issuing office would be more appropriate and more efficient.

    Any Legislator may use this bill and claim it as their own.

    Here it is for your coment, criticism, and enjoyment.

  2. Thorsen

    Thorsen New Member

    Many, if not most of you, will probably disagree with me on this, but I do not think that a misdemeanor drug charge should result in the loss of someone's second amendment rights. Personally, I even have my doubts as to if any non-violent offense at all should be grounds to deny issuance.

    I am a firm believer that the so-called "war on drugs" is a horrendous waste of money and resources. I think that for "hard" drugs, such as cocaine, heroine, meth, pcp and the like, we should offer state paid rehabilitation for users and hard time for sellers with the amount possessed determining which category the offender fell into. Locking up drug users just never made any sense to me, unless of course they were also committing collateral offenses.

    As to non-harmful (or at the very least far less harmful than our currently accepted drugs such as tobacco and alcohol) drugs such as marijuana, hash, and mushrooms, I believe they should be decriminalized and used as another form of government revenue while still being regulated much the same as alcohol.

    As to your proposal to have licenses issued immediately with background checks taking place after issuance and the sherriff's office having to be involved if a denial takes place, I think this would jeapordize Georgia's reciprocity agreements with other states. Until a national law is passed guaranteeing reciprocity, Georgia has to show the other states that currently honor our licenses that due diligence is taking place in ensuring that undesireables do not obtain them. That being said, I would argue for a clearly stated timeline that must be followed by the county, with a temporary license being automatically issued at the time of application that has a 60 day lifespan and does not allow bypassing of national background checks for firearms purchases. If at the end of 60 days a permanent license had not been issued, or a valid reason given for denial of license based on statute, then the applicant would be entitled to an automatic issuance of a permanent license. If after 60 days this automatically issued license was found to be errant, then the county would have to absorb the costs of having a sherriff immediately contact the applicant to collect said license and would have to refund all fees paid by the applicant. Essentially, this would put the onus on the county to control expenditures by being efficient in the issuance of licenses as they would be hit with both the cost of reclaiming an automatically issued license and they would lose the otherwise forfeited licensing fees paid by a non-eligible applicant.

    I also agree with your assertion that an executive branch office of government should be responsible for issuing licenses. If it were consolidated with the county sherriff's office, and failure to follow procedure resulted in automatic issuances and possible collections later on, then the cost would be born out of the department responsible for carrying out the statute.

    Otherwise I like what you have there.

  3. merlock

    merlock Active Member

    I think I'd go even further..."military personel of the state or the United States; Honorably discharged and/or retired veterans."
    A little bennie for serving, just like the drivers license. :)
  4. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

    Won't fly without fingerprints on at least the initial license application because of the loss of reciprocity with so many other states. I am not saying I agree, but this comes first hand, from conversations with Georgia legislators.
  5. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired Active Member

    Why not have the court run the instacheck at the time of application and eliminate the problems with checks coming back denied. Makes the bill shorter and keeps our eligibility for using the GFL when buying handguns. Dealers can run a check on the spot why can't a court clerk?
  6. wsweeks2

    wsweeks2 New Member

    I have conceded that it's not the governments place to dictate what someone puts in their body. I am adamantly opposed to using taxpayers money to help those who made poor choices in this area.

    I will agree that there should be a timeframe that would disqualify a person but that it shouldn't be a strike against them for life. I think the crimes that should be considered for denial of a GFL should be ones that show a blatant disregard for the safety of others.
  7. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

    U.S. Citizen?

    I think that licenses should be available to lawful permanent residents (so-called "green card" holders), not just citizens. In fact, I'd really like to see licenses available for any person who regularly visits here long-term, as in months at a time, on a visa. So long as they speak English. Anybody who doesn't understand the common language of this country doesn't need to be carrying a gun in public. Too much risk of a shooting over a misunderstanding or miscommuniciation.
  8. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

    Gunsmoker, that would disarm a lot of people who were born here.
  9. mzmtg

    mzmtg Active Member

    Maybe he thought the language restriction should only apply to non-citizens.

    One would have to have a decent grasp of English to properly complete the app anyway.

    Are non-citizens going to show up at all in a NICS check?
  10. Wiley

    Wiley Guest

    Why should the applicant have a decent grasp of english when probate clerks, judges, State DPS officials, trial judges, appelate judges and (soon to be demonstrated) supreme court judges don't?

    Not trying to cause a problem, just askin'
  11. Mike from Philly

    Mike from Philly New Member

    Thank you for the comments. They are helpful, useful and thought provoking. I was hoping this thread would generate discussion, which I hoped would sharpen our focus and position statements for when we testify at the General Assembly on future bills.

    In the following, I try to explain my rationale and provide a counter point to your excellent points.

    Non-Citizens and Permanent Residents

    Non-Citizens and Permanent Residents have an advantage over Citizens since they have no history in the US that would be posted in NCIS. By requiring Licensees to be citizens, the applicant will have lived in the US for a sizable period of time. This should enable US Law Enforcement to catch the bad apples.

    Just like we reserve voting and other benefits to Americans, we should also reserve the right to bear arms to Americans. This is our country and will be theirs once they swear loyalty to America and forsake their foreign loyalty/nationality.

    BTW - did you notice that judgments of foreign courts are NOT considered? Only judgments of US Courts count. My rationale was that that many foreign courts lack basic civil rights. If our government denies an American their human right of self defense, it must do so consistent with OUR rules, not mexico's, iran's, or france's

    Instacheck Prior To Issuance

    Based on the current lawless behavior of the Probate Judges and apparent absence of a working knowledge of the English language, I don't trust them to do the check immediately, treat Georgians fairly or follow the law. In this system, a person walks in with a check, drivers license and application and then leaves with a license. The probate judge then can play their games after issuance. If the NICS is down, that isn't the problem of the citizen. If the lady who knows the phone number is in the bathroom, that isn't the problem of the citizen. If the judge doesn't like guns, that isn't the problem of the citizen. The citizen is treated an innocent until proven guilty. Under our current licensing system, we are guilty until the judge decides we are innocent; that is unAmerican.

    Reciprocity and Fingerprints

    I'll start researching whether we lose reciprocity without fingerprints when I return from vacation. I have noticed a trend of states that provide for reciprocity based on mutual recognition .... if you recognize ours, we'll recognize yours.

    The fingerprinting is an 20th Century method of identification. With the extensive databases that the government maintains and the photograhic ID, the government can ID anyone, without fingerprints. This was the point of NCIS; use technology to identify criminals and stop them from buying guns.

    My goal was to make the Licensing System equivalent to that of buying a gun. If you can buy a gun with a drivers license, then that ID should be good enough to carry it.
    By the way, I bet the fingerprinting requirement was a way to discourage Georgians from applying. It adds expense to getting license and is sort of mysterious science. If you have any "history", you would hesitate to give up your prints.

    As a member of GCO, I want us to lead in making getting a license easier, faster, and cheaper in Georgia and the US. No more innocent till proven gun owner. If other states don't recognize ours, then we won't recognize theirs. But at least in Georgia, we will be free and treat our citizens with respect. I don't want our laws driven by a desire to make NY Governor Spitzer happy.

    Federal LEO and Non-Active Duty Military

    Free licenses to the ATF, IRS and members of UN Security? No F'in way. Let their organizations pay for it.

    Every free license means that the costs go up for those who pay, which is us. We need to keep the price down low so that every Georgian can afford a license.

    I selected active Georgia Law Enforcement for several reasons:
    1) we pay their salaries and expenses so in the end we would pay for these licenses
    2) they are charged with enforcing the carry laws, hence we want to encourage them to have licenses and carry like the rest of us. This would increase their knowledge of the law and have them join our ranks.
    3) I think under Georgia law they are already allowed to carry without a license since they are POST certified. Making the LIFETIME license free, removes a hurdle for them to get one, especially those close to retirement.

    I removed all of the exemptions for government employees. The rules should apply to everyone, not just the government elites. Remember, we the people are in charge. Government employees like Judges, Cops, and Politicians work for us.

    I selected active duty Military because they are moved around from base to base often at the whim of the Defense Department and their branch of service. I wanted to reduce the cost of their relocation to Georgia.

    Reserve and Guard units usually are not required to move to specific areas. Rather they locate in an area for personal reasons and then join the local unit. Hence, they are in Georgia by choice and will likely be here for a long time.

    License Used For Gun Buys

    The check for buying a gun is free. Because of ATF harassment of gun dealers, most are running the checks even if you have a License. The manager of Dicks told me that their policy is to always run the check. There is a zero tolerance policy. There are several reasons for this ..... one consistent process for their employees to follow, which minimizes mistakes and training time ..... to prove to the ATF that they are strictly adhering to the rules, which should protect them from suits and ATF harassment.

    After seeing the impact of the last time we tried to maintain the use of the license to buy a gun, I don't want to tie the issues together anymore. I think the ATF is using this "benefit" to limit what we can do in Georgia in regard to carry licenses.


    I wasn't sure how high they should be. Maybe we should use the same rate schedule as driver's licenses:

    Driver License = $35
    Address Change = Once free, thereafter $35

    I visualized the Judges running another check each time AFTER issuance, so they will have those costs to cover. Plus, we got to fund the Sheriff and Court costs for folks disputing rejections.

    Drug Convictions

    Not all Drug users are violent criminals but a sizable portion of violent criminals have drug convictions. Under my scheme, minor drug convictions are forgotten after 5 years. If one can stay drug free for 5 years, then they are most likely not going to get back involved in drugs. Currently someone with a minor drug conviction can’t get a license, ever.

    Also, I’ve include a procedure where people can apply to get their record cleared, even if they are convicted of felonies. That is something that doesn’t exist today, which is unfair. Why should someone be denied a right for an action 20 years ago and that they paid their dues to society? Everyone deserves a second chance.
  12. wsweeks2

    wsweeks2 New Member

    I will agree with this. Why should we punish Marylanders who are fortunate enough to get a permit because their government has recto-cranial syndrome?
  13. fallison

    fallison Guest

    Because they are the ones that elected their RCS suffering government.