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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/21/geo ... tml?hpt=C1

Looks like it's not just a Catholic thing, it's a Christian thing. If we are to use the same standards, and all Muslims are terrorists or support it, then all Christians are molesters or support it.

To take it a step further, why don't we hear condemnation from every Christian leader, unless of course, they condone this behavior.

Sounds kind of silly when you put it that way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Because Shari'a law is not uniform across the Middle East. It is any group of people (with power) and their interpretation of what is meant by the Qur'an, and applying that to secular law. So in some places it can be violent, and in other places not. Just like some Christian believe in the death penalty and others do not. It is not so different.

But the question is, why isn't the media putting a camera in front of every Christian leader, asking for a comment on this situation.

Your pastor may have condemned these activities in the confines of your congregation, but why haven't we heard a public denouncement, why not a statement to the press? Isn't that what you demand of every Muslim leader?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
rodanvssct said:
Because the Bible condemns it. Therefore any Bible believing pastor will be against it as well.
And yet it still happens.

1) Please point to the passage that condemns the molesting of young boys by church leaders.

2) The Qur'an does condemn the shedding of innocent blood.
[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)''

“Whoever kills a soul â€" unless for another soul or for corruption (vice and mischief spread) in the land â€" it is as if he had slain the whole of mankind. And whoever saves one â€" it is as if he had saved the whole of mankind.†[Surah Ma’idah 5:32]

And yet it still happens.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
TippinTaco said:
He's heard denouncement.. just a VERY quietly one done in front of the congregation. I doubt any pastor would go public through the media. Sorta puts them in a spot light and makes the Annual preacher ski trip in the Alps more ackward. I used to go to a church where you had to bring your own fold out chair, it had 4 walls, 2 doors and some stain glassed windows. We learned about god. I miss those days when church was about something more than who has nicer things and what type of starbucks you want.
Wow is it possible that some of the imams did the same thing???? Or are you holding the imams to a different and higher standard than your own minister???? I would imagine that a ski trip with an accused pedophile would be awkward anyway. Just saying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
How about this, so that we are fair to both Christians and Muslims in America:

1. No mosques should be built within three blocks of a terrorist attack. It is still too soon, it would be insensitive to the victims, and it might attract those that would commit acts of terror to the site.

2. No churches should be built within three blocks of a school, playground, or park. It is still too soon, it would be insensitive to the victims, and it might attract those that would molest children to the site.

3. It is acceptable for Christians to burn their own copies of the Qur'an and vice versa, but only if membership is flagging and you need the publicity.


Sound fair?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
robfromga said:
Wow. Tough crowd, with a agenda. I can't help that you haven't heard our minister say that ...or anything to that matter. Who's "fault" is it that those words haven't been heard? I'm sure you'll tell me shortly, you seem to be pretty well connected. Hope it serves you well, I'll pray for ya.
By those standards who is to blame for those of you who didn't read all of the condemnations of 9/11 coming from the Middle East?

Maybe....just maybe, the MSM is biased at times. :shock: By all standards the Muslim community is more conservative than your average attendee at a Tea Party rally, and perhaps the media has a biased against anyone who is conservative, regardless of religion. Or maybe its against religion itself, as that is the opiate of the people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
rodanvssct said:
Funny i just saw this today.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 1F2Q9H.DTL

The phrase 'those who live in glass houses should not throw stones' comes to mind.

In no way am I condoning the pastor's actions in the original post. I'm just pointing out that the pedophile pastor is not representative of Biblical teaching.
I have one better for you. This is during hajj in Mecca itself, the most holy celebration in all of Islam.

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-ara ... d-1.685165

Maybe it has nothing to do with either religion, and the failings of certain individuals?
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Boy you are all suckers. The post was about the idiocy of painting some broad brush across an entire religion for the actions of certain individuals who claim membership in that group. Instead some of you went on your old worn out rants about Islam just to prove my point. One can no more claim that this man or any preacher accused of sexual molestation as being representative of Christianity, as you can make judgements about Islam based on some radicalized faction that most denounce.

Malum,
I am sure that most of the Catholic priests denied their activities as well. On this case we'll see. (Does it follow that these two young men have had legal troubles in the past, therefore the molestation did not take place?) And as a good defense lawyer I am sure it is good practice to to attack the character and therefore the credibility of an accuser to convince a jury of your client's innocence. That's probably why most molestation and rape cases never make it to trial. For fear of those tactics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
EJR,
You are so filled with hate, it is frightening. Get counseling. Seriously. You can wrap that hate in decontextualized excerpts from the Qur'an, just as any decently educated person can do to the Bible, and it still doesn't remove the hatred in your writing.

The Bible, specifically Jesus said, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And when one man stepped up, his sins were revealed.

And yet some Christians continue to believe in the death penalty, despite this clear prohibition. It seems to me that anyone who claims to be a Christian would be faith bound to oppose capital punishment...... Unless of course you read other portions of the Bible that seemingly support it. It is up to every Christian to create a belief system that they feel coincides with their interpretation of the Bible. The same holds true for Muslims and the Qur'an. The vast majority of believe it to be a religion of peace and tolerance. Some use the religion for their own purposes.

BTW, I heard a justice from the Alabama Supreme court say that the entire basis of the American judicial system was on the Ten Commandments. That's Shar'ia. Shar'ia law is the interpretation of the Qur'an by 'experts' to put into law what God has commanded. It is all based on human interpretation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Malum Prohibitum said:
bdee said:
Malum,
I am sure that most of the Catholic priests denied their activities as well. On this case we'll see. (Does it follow that these two young men have had legal troubles in the past, therefore the molestation did not take place?)
Molestation? Of a 21 year old? :lol:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/22/geo ... index.html

It sounds like the abuse started when Parris was 14, and Flagg said he was molested at Coretta Scott King's funeral when he was 17. So yes these two men are NOW 21, but that doesn't mean they have always been 21.

But the case will be hard to prove regardless. That's not the point of this thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
EJR914 said:
bdee said:
EJR,
You are so filled with hate, it is frightening. Get counseling. Seriously. You can wrap that hate in decontextualized excerpts from the Qur'an, just as any decently educated person can do to the Bible, and it still doesn't remove the hatred in your writing.

The Bible, specifically Jesus said, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And when one man stepped up, his sins were revealed.

And yet some Christians continue to believe in the death penalty, despite this clear prohibition. It seems to me that anyone who claims to be a Christian would be faith bound to oppose capital punishment...... Unless of course you read other portions of the Bible that seemingly support it. It is up to every Christian to create a belief system that they feel coincides with their interpretation of the Bible. The same holds true for Muslims and the Qur'an. The vast majority of believe it to be a religion of peace and tolerance. Some use the religion for their own purposes.

BTW, I heard a justice from the Alabama Supreme court say that the entire basis of the American judicial system was on the Ten Commandments. That's Shar'ia. Shar'ia law is the interpretation of the Qur'an by 'experts' to put into law what God has commanded. It is all based on human interpretation.
:lol: Nice try to paint me as some hate-filled nut job that needs counseling, did you learn that one from MSNBC or the Huffington Post? Your reply is so typical it is laughable.

I don't hate any Muslims. I'm dealing with facts here. You are using ad hominem attacks on me because you know you cannot argue with facts.

There is no hate in my writing. I don't hate a single Muslim person. That is a complete lie and falsehood.

What does my post have anything to do with Christianity? Strawman. That Alabama Supreme court justice is a fool for saying such a thing, and furthermore, what did that have to do with my post? Nothing. Strawman.

The Alabama Supreme Court Justice's opinion is easily unproven. Nowhere in the 10 Commandments does it say that you have to have freedom of religion, the press, or assembly, nowhere does it say that you have to have the freedom to bare arms, nowhere does it say you can't have soldiers stationed in your home without your consent... nowhere does it say that you have the right to be secure in your effects, nowhere does it say that you have the freedom to remain silent.

Do not murder, do not steal are common law, that almost every country and ever state agrees on... just because they happen to be in The Bible doesn't mean we are a theocracy in America. Its laughable.

This isn't the first time you've attacked me on this forum. I believe last time you called me a hate-filled bigot. I remember proving to you that it was false, and you still never manned up and admitted that you were wrong.

Now you're trying to use the same techniques that all the liberals use which is to call me crazy, suggest I need couseling, and that I'm so full of hate. All this instead of actually arguing the facts without using personal attacks, ad hominem, to try and discredit me and strawmen.

What exactly did any of your post above have to do with my post?

Nice try, but I'm onto you.
So there are other people besides me that recognize the pathology in your thinking?

If you decontextualize certain passages you can come up with any sort of narrative you want. It seems you want to demonize Islam and found passages to do just that. I could do the same to the Bible, but that would offend the Christians on this forum, and that is not my intention.

The point of this thread is that if we need to apply the same standards used towards Muslims and Christians, and the fallacy of using a broad brush about an entire religion based on the actions of certain individuals.

It seems you want to hijack it and turn it into one of your rants about Islam.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Well it seems you want to hijack yet another thread with your anti-Muslim rants.

But no I won't take passages from the Bible out of context just so you can feel better about your own hatred.

But there is no real point in debating theology or its historical context, as you have your mind made up. As Mark Twain famously said, "It's like trying to teach a pig to sing. It’s a waste of the teacher’s time and it irritates the pig."
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
EJR914 said:
bdee said:
Well it seems you want to hijack yet another thread with your anti-Muslim rants.

But no I won't take passages from the Bible out of context just so you can feel better about your own hatred.

But there is no real point in debating theology or its historical context, as you have your mind made up. As Mark Twain famously said, "It's like trying to teach a pig to sing. It’s a waste of the teacher’s time and it irritates the pig."
Yep, call it a rant instead of actually arguing facts. Call it hatred instead of arguing the facts.

Maybe if you would actually try to argue the facts instead of making up lies about me and attacking me personally, you may could actually change my mind, but you won't try.

All you've done is argue Strawmen, and instead of actually debating me, you give some cop out quote :roll: The Christian thing, I never even brought up, you brought that up out of thin air and argued a point I never made.

Your debating skills are legendary, bdee. You learned from the best though, attack them personally when you can't debate them. Make them look crazy, as to blur the facts and me look illegitimate. Have you been studying Alinksy's Rules For Radicals? Because you've executed it perfectly. Maybe you just learned it from seeing out the collectivist argue so much. Either way, this isn't the first time you've tried to do this to me, it probably won't be the last. I'm onto you man.

Try arguing facts next time instead of making personal attacks.
I am not going to bother arguing "facts" with people that would quote jihad watch as their source of information. Their website is an Israeli funded spin machine dedicated to stirring up fear with the express purpose of ensuring our continued military aid. Check out who your sources are before you quote them.

Nor am i going to argue passages taken out of their historical context, just to fuel your bigotry. I could give you a variety of primary documents about medieval Islam, my specialty, but you'd likely look within them to find justification for your hatred rather than what they are. So again what's the point?

So keep reading websites, designed to keep you fearful, it's how you want to feel anyhow, and it makes you feel better that your not alone in your hatred. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 ·
The point of this thread was to point out the fallacy of trying to equate the alleged actions of one or a small group of men has any bearing on the religion itself (the example I used was Mr. Long, or any accused Catholic priest). I compared it to the actions of a few radicals, widely condemned by the vast majority of Muslims.

EJR decided that this was a good time to start rant again about specific passages, he took out of context to prove his point. Do a simple search on this site and see how many times he's brought up "Shar'ia" as if there was one universal interpretation of what the Qur'an says or means. He wants me to get into a debate on "facts" he read on the internet.

If you want to know more about current trends in the modern Middle East, and Islamism in particular, I suggest a website that I have done a brief bit of editing for, and hope to possibly work for once I complete my PhD next year. The website is:

http://www.currenttrends.org/

This website is funded through the Hudson Institute, who has several connections to the Hoover Institute, a conservative think tank.

Islamism is a problem in the Middle East, but the problem is not as simplistic as the aforementioned member's adolescent rants. I found it ironic that he called me a collectivist, when he was trying to lump all Muslim together. That all Muslims are some sort of universal whole that contain no individuals, and have no agency in their own lives. That there is no possibility in the motivations of the radicals other than the simplistic binary he has set up.

al-Qaeda's goals are not so simple as America is the Devil and we hate freedom and Death to America, though they do say that. These men are very intelligent, and quite well connected. So perhaps it is easy to motivate your own audience by dehumanizing these people, but it will take people from focusing on 'effective' ways of shutting them down. But one thing to keep in mind is that these radicals' ultimate goal is not the destruction of the West, but the eventual overthrow of the Saud family in Saudi Arabia. It is about money and power, but religion has a way of motivating the disaffected.

Hope this helps.

Read some of these well written and insightful articles. Unfortunately, you can't copy and paste the bullet points, but they will give you an insight into the real problems in the Middle East.
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
seereus said:
bdee said:
But one thing to keep in mind is that these radicals' ultimate goal is not the destruction of the West, but the eventual overthrow of the Saud family in Saudi Arabia. It is about money and power, but religion has a way of motivating the disaffected.

Hope this helps.
Maybe someone should point out to them that Saudi Arabia is not in the USA, or Brittan, or France, or................
Al-Qaeda seems to feel that the Saudi leadership is illegitimate, and if not for American support, the people of Saudi Arabia would rise up and overthrow them (presumably they feel that they could fill that power vacuum) So they are trying to make our presence in Saudi not worth it on a cost benefit analysis. They calculated that their attack would draw us to the region. (They were correct in that projection.) They are trying to capitalize on popular distrust of the west given their history with colonialism in the region up to the 1950s. What they are attempting to do is show the people of the region that their current governments are puppets of the west, and their populations will turn against them on the basis of that belief. So in provoking us to intervene in the region, they feel they are one step closer to their goals. They also seem to believe that once they have control of a large chunk of the world's oil supply, we will be forced to recognize them as the legitimate government. This is their fundamental mistake.
 
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