Mass Shooting defense .380 verses a .223

Discussion in 'Firearm Related' started by carnut, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. carnut

    carnut Member

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    My wife and I were in a Woodstock Walmart Saturday afternoon, I got home to hear about the El Paso shooting. Then this morning heard about the Ohio shooting. It got me thinking about my strategy to protect my wife and myself in such a situation. I pocket carry a .380 6+1 rounds but, it feels like pea-shooter against a .223 semi auto. Unless I was cornered or forced into a life or death defense situation I would be very, very hesitant to initiate an offense against any long range (accuracy), high capacity, semi auto.
    I first though out of the large number of shoppers in a Texas store, there must be a good number of armed citizens. However after thinking this over, maybe a handgun is not a good answer for a well armed shooter. Any other opinions out there ??
     
  2. NTA

    NTA Well-Known Member

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    A .380 is about as useful as a good pocketknife.
    Maybe it could be used as a noise maker to frighten away someone or someone who is not armed.

    Any shooter with no fear of death will obviously not be frightened by anything.
     

  3. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    Ideally you'd be carrying a rifle too, but that isn't likely to happen and anything less than that puts you at a disadvantage. With the reliability and popularity of subcompact and compact 9mm guns nowadays, it would seem much more practical to carry 9mm vs. .380.
     
  4. DonT

    DonT Deplorable bitter clinger.

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    It is going to be your decision based on your own lifestyle and your personal daily risk assessment. Any handgun is no real match for someone armed with a rifle. Regardless of caliber or type of handgun, would you even try to fire back at someone who is shooting innocent people with an AR or an AK? So many variables, like if you had family with you and how that would affect your actions, are you close enough/can you get close enough, is there cover/can you use cover, is there maybe an opening as BG changes mags or has a malfunction, etc. Even more important...do you have the willingness (ie, big brass ones) to go through with a counterattack against a dude with a long gun, armed with your pistol?

    I would say, carry some gun all the time. Better, carry a gun in a caliber that police use. Better still, have as much skill with your chosen handgun as you are motivated to go get. Even taking pot shots from cover with a .380, may just make a difference and save lives. Of course, you may get killed if you do that. You could get killed doing nothing, too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  5. Dawgdoc

    Dawgdoc Well-Known Member

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    I guess my response would be on where the gunman is relative to where my family is. I was talking with my wife, and we presume most of the casualties were near the check out, since the guy came in ready to shoot. If that is the case, I told her to head as far back to the store to the freezer section to find a back door. I figure distance and as much steel as possible would be the best thing between my family and the shooter. I told her not to get tunnel vision to head for the visible exit at the front of the store, unless they were close and it was clear, to not forget that there are loading docks and back doors in most stores.

    As such, if I was not with them, and all I had was my LCP, and I saw the killer pointing or heading toward wherever my family might be, my goal would be to shoot him in the back and redirect his attention if it does not stop the shooting. I would not want to present a target of myself if I knew my family was fleeing straight behind me.

    I do not know how it occurred in El Paso, but almost every Wal-Mart I have seen has a very similar layout, and I would expect any killer coming in the front door would not get very far before finding many surprised targets at the registers and the general vicinity of the front of the store. Since this killer lived, it would be useful to know if he just shot up the front of the store and ran, did he stalk through the aisles, or did he go straight from front to back of the store before escaping?
     
  6. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    A .380 is just as effective as the person using it. No more and no less. Even a .22 will kill and it's even possible to make a one shot stop with it. No it doesn't have to be a head shot. Too many here like to think in caliber rather than the shooter. I aced with a AR in 5.56/.223 wouldn't it be better to have a .308 to out gun them? If so why not a .50 BMG? A well placed .380 would be just as effective as any other caliber that was well placed. A .380 not well placed is just as useless as any other caliber not well placed.

    While most people train at 7 yards with I suggest training with your .380 at 20 or even 25 yards. It's not really a bad idea with other calibers as well. At almost 1,000 FPS the .380 can kill easily and accurately at distances out to about 60 yards or more. Even in most stores your LOF will be less than 20 to 25 yards. This is jut not worth getting stressed out over.
     
  7. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    I carry a .380 pocket pistol a lot.
    It's not very accurate. Even with a laser sight, and shooting with my arms resting on the shooting bench, very slow and steady trigger pulls, I'm getting 5-shot groups the size of a big rig truck tire at 25 yards. On a man, that would mean a few misses, a gut shot, one grazing his bicep, and maybe a hit on his collarbone.

    Would that incapacitate him?

    Maybe.

    But what if he were 40 yards from me, shooting innocents with his Trijicon-sighted M4gery? Would I even git him once out of my .380's total payload of 7 shots? Maybe, once.

    I am not sure I'd even try.


    ********


    Now, give me a duty pistol with a 5" barrel and 13-18 round capacity, and I'll be his Huckleberry. I think I'd feel obligated to play THAT hand, even if I would still be outgunned simply as to the type of weapon and how much firepower & accuracy it has.
     
  8. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    I carry a 380 when circumstances require deep cover, nothing visible at all. That is in a flap top belt pouch that looks like a phone case. My shirt is untucked over it.

    Any other time I will risk observation or exposure and go 9mm plus. Where I need to go still well covered its that new 9mm Remington R-51. More risk permits a 3.5 inch barrel .45acp 1911. Where I open carry its 5906. I always carry at least one and frequently 2 extra magazines.

    IMHO 380 is too small. Its better than a sharp stick or knife but its my choice only when the other choices are sharp stick or knife.

    Were I in El Paso I like to think I would have taken him on if I could intitially advance from the side or rear from about 30 yards or so back. The photos I have seen showed some type of eye and ear protection but nothing that could indicate body armor in any way, so my preferred EDC there would be the 5906. Just for 30 rounds with 1 mag change instead of 21 with 2 mag changes. Wal Mart in Tx would have been the 5906 with a shirt tail over it but not much else.

    Either way, I suspect the first mag would have won or lost the day.

    Nemo
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  9. DonT

    DonT Deplorable bitter clinger.

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    This is great general advice, posted on Facebook and endorsed by Greg Ellifritz, a big time firearms instructor. The writer is Chris Hernandez.

    "Here are a handful of considerations on what to do if you find yourself in a mass shooting. My opinion comes from decades as a cop, a couple years at war, and my experiences teaching active shooter response to cops for a few years.

    1) Look for the easiest accessible *safer* place. In a place like Walmart there are multiple doors leading to back areas, stockrooms, freezers, etc. Every store or restaurant in a mall has an employees-only back area. Don't stampede with the crowd toward the main exits unless you're absolutely sure it's clear; mass shooters are looking for clumps of people to kill, so getting into a group makes you a more attractive target.

    2) Remember that you're going to experience survival stress reactions like tunnel vision, auditory exclusion (you literally stop hearing), and critical incident amnesia (you forget major things that you just saw). Don't think that just because you gave your wife, children, or boyfriend clear instructions like "Run this way!" they heard or understood you. In a critical, lethal, dynamic, high-stress incident, your perception can become seriously flawed. This goes double if you're untrained or inexperienced.

    3) In a critical incident about 75% of the population will experience "normalcy bias"; they'll see something insane happening right in front of them (like a guy walking into Walmart with an AK), and convince themselves that it has to be something normal. "Oh, he must be coming in to buy BBs for that airsoft gun," or something like that. Normalcy bias increases reaction time and can get you killed.

    4) If you don't know exactly where the shooter is, don't blindly run for your life to get away. A better option might be to run to a covered or concealed spot, take a look around, choose the next spot, sprint to that, assess, choose the next spot, and so on, until you reach safety.

    5) Do not assume that every mass shooter is an absolutely unstoppable Delta Force SEAL ninja. Most mass shooters are unskilled, untrained cowards who can operate a weapon and kill defenseless people, but can't and don't want to fight. Mass shooters tend to fold as soon as they face resistance. Many mass shooters have stopped their attacks because their weapons malfunctioned and they had no idea how to clear them. One of the Columbine shooters even managed to break his own nose when he fired a pistol grip shotgun at a victim. These people are murderous cowards, not brave warriors.

    6) Mass shooters tend to show terrible situational awareness because they think they own the place until police show up. Their heads aren't on a swivel looking for threats, all their focus is on the victims they're hunting. The kind of guy who believes he's in complete control and enjoys murdering defenseless victims tends to get very upset if he's unexpectedly shot in the back of the head. So upset him.

    7) If you carry a firearm, remember that if the shooter attacks and you're in his sights, you *have to* immediately fight back. If you're far enough away that you hear shots and screams but aren't under immediate threat, you *can* advance on the shooter and fight back. You decide what's best, but keep in mind that the best defense is a good offense.

    8 If you choose to engage the shooter/shooters, take a moment to assess what you're up against. Do you hear multiple weapons, suggesting multiple attackers? Does the gunfire sound like it's from a large-caliber rifle, or .22 pistol? Is the shooter firing so fast that even with a drum magazine he'll have to change mags soon? Do you hear the attackers yelling anything? You might respond differently to a shooter slowly firing a .22 pistol and yelling "Where is she?" than to a shooter blasting rounds from an AK while shrieking "You will all die, traitors!" At least, I'd respond a little differently.

    9) If you choose to engage, try not to go head to head. Maneuver. Flank. Circle around. Surprise him.

    10) Stay low. There's a reason soldiers instinctively crouch when moving under fire: most people, especially untrained people, and especially untrained people firing fast, tend to shoot high.

    11) Remember that all of us tend to search at head/eye level. The shooter probably won't notice the guy on the ground leaning out from behind a cooler pointing a pistol at him.

    12) If you're going to engage, you have to close distance. Concealed carriers and off-duty cops generally carry a small or medium-sized pistol, often with no spare ammo. You're probably not going to put a mass shooter down with six rounds from your .380 from 90 yards away.

    13) On that note, and I don't care what you hear from others, CARRY SPARE AMMO. No, you don't need it for typical defensive firearm use, but a mass shooting isn't typical. If you expect to fight, carry ammo to sustain a fight.

    14) If you put down the shooter, do a fast threat scan for secondary shooters and then put your weapon away. If at all possible, DO NOT have a weapon in your hands when officers arrive.

    15) Remember that any form of resistance can save lives. If you shoot at him and miss but stop him from advancing on potential victims, you've saved lives. If you miss and he runs away, you've saved lives. If you miss but force him into a restricted area and he stays there because you're covering the exit, you've saved lives.

    That's all for now, maybe I'll post more later. We cops, armed citizens, and good decent Americans are all in this together; let's flip the script on mass shooters, make them scared, and put them down the moment they try to live out their murderous, cowardly fantasies.

    Stay safe, and stay ready to defend yourselves, your families and your fellow citizens."
     
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  10. atlsrt44

    atlsrt44 Well-Known Member

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    My pocket pistol is a .357 mag with 2 in barrel. I'd have better luck throwing it at a shooter more than 10ft away
     
  11. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    If you follow these two clowns approach, yes, you might have some interesting interactions with some people, especially badged ones.
    [​IMG]

    But why not a discreetly slung over the back SBR? That's legal in GA and many other states. It's just something that's not commonly done or seen. Excluding those guys that do it specifically to get some type of response from the police. Personally I don't think it will ever be an everyday thing unless society as a whole reaches a point where it becomes necessary.
     
  12. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    Don't underestimate the value of a good pocketknife in a one-on-one incident. Especially if you have the element of surprise.
     
  13. OWM

    OWM Well-Known Member

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    Just a personal observation I've made in the past few years that many stress close up stuff and don't train for other distances. Damn they are both important.
    Maybe it's time to drag some sorry asses off the 10 yard line and spend more time on the 20 with a CC weapon that can handle the range and the target.
    This stuff ain't going away and neither are the Guns.Get your Head right or stay out of it period. In any event have something in your hand and a plan and a backup plan. Maybe some of it will work.
     
  14. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Who's up for a 25 yard "daily carry" pistol challenge?

    Most people around urban areas like Atlanta only have access to indoor ranges that are limited to 25 yards. That's also the farthest distance Georgia law enforcement officers need to shoot during their handgun qualifications.

    https://www.gapost.org/pdf_file/gsac05.pdf

    Let's see who among us can (and cannot) keep the great majority of their shots in the chest area of a man size silhouette target at 25 yards.


    Starting from the low ready position, gun in hand. Taking 1 shot at a time, and with a 4.0 time limit for each of those shots.

    I'll start a new thread on this in the "Competitions" forum.
     
  15. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    25 yards is a serious shot with a pistol, but anyone that carry's should be able to, minimally, be able to put the majority of their shots onto a full size torso target at their distance. Consistently pulling off headshots at that distance could be more of a struggle for most. From what I've seen at my local range, I'm not sure many could hit the target at all at that distance, but I don't know how many of them carry vs. shoot for fun, home defense, practice, etc.
     
  16. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Talk talk talk.
    Shoot a target at 25 yards, post a pic of it, and SHOW us.
    Good or bad.
    I'll do it too, with one or more SMALL pistols, of the type I actually carry at the mall, out in public.
     
  17. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    Well I go to the range regularly and it is time for another trip, so I'll gladly throw up a 25 yard target and share pics when I'm at Bulls Eye this week.
     
  18. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    This will turn into a dick waving contest.
     
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  19. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that the case with virtually any competition?
     
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  20. NTA

    NTA Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, I carry a big one.
     
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