List of Places NOT Off Limits

Discussion in 'Places Off-Limits' started by Malum Prohibitum, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll start:

    McDonalds.

    State v. Burns, 200 Ga. App. 16 (1991). It is only two paragraphs, so here it is in full.

    Appellee was arrested at a McDonald's restaurant for the offense of carrying a concealed weapon (OCGA § 16-11-126); however, the State did not pursue the charge upon discovering that appellee had a valid gun permit. Instead, he was charged with carrying a deadly weapon to a public gathering (OCGA § 16-11-127). The trial court granted appellee's motion to dismiss the accusation, stating that McDonald's was not a public gathering as contemplated under the statute, and the State appealed.

    OCGA § 16-11-127(b) provides that a "public gathering" includes but is not limited to "athletic or sporting events, schools or school functions, churches or church functions, political rallies or functions, publicly owned or operated buildings, or establishments at which alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on the premises." The State argues that the statute seeks to protect people from injury at public gatherings, caused by others who bring deadly weapons to such places and does not exclude an establishment such as McDonald's, which is a place where the public lawfully gathers. However, this broad interpretation equates "public gathering" to "public place" and blurs the distinction we must assume the legislature intended to make in specifically referring to gatherings in OCGA § 16-11-127 and by limiting its restriction to gatherings as opposed to proscribing the carrying of deadly weapons in public places as defined by OCGA § 16-1-3(15). We agree with appellee that such a construction would render licensing statutes unnecessary because of the potential of violating the statutes by carrying a weapon outside one's household, in public, where the possibility exists that people might gather around someone carrying a weapon. We have held that a conviction was authorized when a weapon was brought to a place where "people were present" (Jordan v. State, 166 Ga.App. 417(4), 304 S.E.2d 522 (1983)), and it appears from reading subsection (b) and giving the words their ordinary meaning that the statute should apply, in addition to the situations described therein, when people are gathered or will be gathered for a particular function and not when a weapon is carried lawfully to a public place, where people may gather. Accordingly, the focus is not on the "place" but on the "gathering" of people, and in our view, the court did not err in dismissing the accusation because appellee's possession of a weapon and mere presence in a public place did not constitute a violation of OCGA § 16- 11-127.
    Judgment affirmed.
     
  2. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    Inside your house
     

  3. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    I-75, a 15-mile stretch

    If you are traveling on Interstate 75 between downtown Atlanta (which is well within the "school zone" of both Georgia State's dorms and Georgia Tech's main campus) and Kennesaw, GA (which is well within 1000 feet of Kennesaw State University's parking lots), you have about a 15-mile stretch of road to drive on that does not bring you within a school zone, as far as I know. Maybe some private schools, church day cares, or public elementary schools might be within 1000 feet of the right-of-way of the interstate, but I am not aware of any.

    So this stretch of road is not off-limits for carrying by most of us. The area around downtown, or through Kennesaw, would be off-limits for people without a Georgia concealed-carry permit, regardless of whether they had a permit from another state with recriprocity or whether they were an off-duty LEO who can carry interstate without a permit, or whether they were exempt from permit requirements for any ohter reason. (per federal law, and perhaps per our own state "school safety zone" law, depending how the courts interpret it.)
     
  4. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Gunsmoker,

    I'm curious about why you said people without a GFL, but with a reciprocal state CCW, could not carry through downtown ATL. Aren't those two classes of people on equal footing?
     
  5. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    I can answer this one for him. There is a federal law against carry in school zones that excepts only home state permits.

    I think this was passed after U.S. v. Lopez struck down the similar statute as exceeding the Commerce Clause powers of Congres, although I am not a hundred percent sure of that.
     
  6. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    I didn't realize Congress had done any tinkering since Lopez. Do you happen to have a cite to the USC for that one?
     
  7. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    18 USC 922 (q)

    1996
    Subsec. (q). Pub. L. 104-208, Sec. 101(f) (title VI, Sec. 657),
    amended subsec. generally, revising and restating former
    provisions.

    1994
    Subsec. (q). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320904, added par. (1) and
    redesignated former pars. (1) to (3) as (2) to (4), respectively.


    1994 is the important one, as the Supreme Court complainted about the lack of congressional "findings" relating to the jurisdicational requirement that guns in school zones substantially affect interestate commerce. Some will recall from John Roberts' hearings (he is now Chief Justice) that he stated that the law under consideration in US v. Lopez would have been constitutional had congress simply included findings in the statute.


    Technically, this was amended before the decision in Lopez was issued, but the government made the tactical error of not relying on the findings in the amendment. See FN 4 in Lopez.

    We note that on September 14, 1994, President Clinton signed into law the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, Pub.L. 103-322, 108 Stat. 1796. Section 320904 of that Act, id., at 2125, amends section 922(q) to include congressional findings regarding the effects of firearm possession in and around schools upon interstate and foreign commerce. The Government does not rely upon these subsequent findings as a substitute for the absence of findings in the first instance. Tr. of Oral Arg. 25 ("[W]e're not relying on them in the strict sense of the word, but we think at a very minimum they indicate that reasons can be identified for why Congress wanted to regulate this particular activity").
     
  8. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Here is what they added:


    (q)(1) The Congress finds and declares that -

    (A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem;

    (B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;

    (C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the Judiciary [of] the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate;

    (D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;

    (E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to school for the same reason;

    (F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;

    (G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;

    (H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves - even States, localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States or localities to take strong measures; and

    (I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation's schools by enactment of this subsection.
     
  9. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Pretty circular arguments, ahem, "findings," if you ask me. :roll:
     
  10. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Where's the part about resident gun permit exceptions?
     
  11. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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  12. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    "Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

    . . .

    if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"





    That's it.

    :(

    Be careful when out of state. For those visiting us, Georgia does not have nonresident licenses.
     
  13. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    While I would not be anxious to be the test case, it strikes me that someone here with a reciprocal state license is "licensed by the state," in that GA has granted the person a right not granted to the general public (i.e., the right to carry a firearm). In a strict legal sense, the person is licensed by the state. People tend to think of a license as a piece of paper issued to a person, but in the classical legal sense, a license is a grant of a right or set of rights.

    With the myriad traps for the unwary (or even the wary) out there, I remain befuddled at those that believe that disclosing carry during a traffic stop (when not required by law to do so) is a good idea. It seems to me that the small potential benefit of good will from the officer if he/she is pro-CCW is far outweighed by the potential risk of inadvertently incriminating oneself of violating one of the countless prohibitions.
     
  14. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    jrm: While you are correct about those states on the AG's reciprocity list should legally mean that they are the same as a Georgia issued permit, the last part "before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;" eliminates those states on the reciprocity list since it requires Georgia to do those checks.

    On the plus side I am pretty sure state and local officers don't have the power to arrest you only on a federal charge, the feds have to.
     
  15. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    I agree you could make a good argument with that, however if a state decided to issue a license without a background check, Georgia would still recognize it and be in violation of that law. I don't know enough caselaw to know if my argument would win with just the possibility of that or if one actually has to exist.


    I just noticed this thread is getting way off topic so I split it in 2 so both can continue.

    Right v privilege is now http://www.gfodl.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1815#1815
     
  16. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, but, thanks to the video circulating on the internet, we now know that ATF agents give firearms demonstrations to kids in schools, so they could very well be there in civilian clothes when you drop in for a visit!
    :shock:

    :jail:
     
  17. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    Yeah, and remember not to dress as a ninja on campus.
     
  18. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Add Marta and State parks and historic sites (and public buildings on such sites) to this list.