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Atlanta Overwatch
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From the BATFE's C&R page:

"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm."

Please note the words "and in its original configuration"..
 

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Hope this helps
Not sure if anything else applies

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/g...r-relics-list-1972-2007-atf-p-530011/download

page 36

Hamilton, models 7, 11, 15, 19,

23, 27, 027, 31, 35, 39, and 43 rifles.

SECTION III: Weapons Removed From The NFA
As Collector's Items And Classified
As Curios Or Relics Under The GCA

The Bureau has determined that by reason of the date of their manufacture, value, design and other
characteristics, the following firearms are primarily collector's items and are not likely to be used as weapons
and, therefore, are excluded from the provisions of the National Firearms Act.
Further, the Bureau has determined that such firearms are also Curios or Relics as defined in 27 CF

 

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Atlanta Overwatch
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XLS177,

The issue is not that the original rifle is listed on the C&R list. The issue is that it no longer in its original configuration. Changing the configuration by cutting down the barrel and the stock changes its classification and causes it to lose its C&R eligibility.
 

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According to the title description it removes the NFA provisions.

The Bureau has determined that by reason of the date of their manufacture, value, design and other
characteristics, the following firearms are primarily collector's items and are not likely to be used as weapons
and, therefore, are excluded from the provisions of the National Firearms Act.

C&R is a separate issue

Further, the Bureau has determined that such firearms are also Curios or Relics as defined in 27 CF

I don't have a dog in this fight and i am not a subject expert but it seems to read straight forward.

If you have another code section that states it the must be in be in and stay in original condition to qualify please list it.
It would be helpful to the whole board
 

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Atlanta Overwatch
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I already posted the quote from the BATFE FAQ page.

As mentioned previously, not all C&R items are NFA exempt. To buy a WWII machine gun with a C&R you still must pay NFA transfer fees and wait for approval.

If you take a Winchester '73 lever action, chop the barrel off and cut the stock off at the receiver, you have still made an SBR.

This is no different.
 

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That looks like it. If I got the tax stamp would that make it legal? And if so what would I do with it in the mean time?
To legally make an SBR you must first obtain a stamp, then shorten the rifle.

In submitting the form you would be admitting calling attention to the fact that you may own an illegal SBR. Could you submit, hope no one checks, and then be legal going forward? Sure, but that is a big risk.
 

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From the BATFE's C&R page:

"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm."

Please note the words "and in its original configuration"..
That may be the operative phrase here. The gun doesn't appear to be as originally manufactured and I doubt there are any manufacturer's catalogs around today to verify.

OP, you said your father "found" the rifle 20 years ago. I don't know how much sentimentality that means to you. Does the rifle even fire? If you really want to keep it, for whatever reason, do so. You could always pour lead into the barrel to make it inoperable. Or not. Then just STFU about it. I would not attempt to SBR this rifle because the outcome may not be what you think. And I'd seriously request an admin to delete this entire thread to avoid giving ATF any opportunity to screw with you. Sad that we have to think like that.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Thanks for all the info on this. i would never fire this as it does not seem safe or fun to shoot. Making it unfire able would change things?
 

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Seasteading Aficionado
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So sad this even had to be a question, what a gorgeous piece of history you have there.

Delete this thread, STFU.
 

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Lawyer and Gun Activist
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Hmm.... a sawed-off rifle.

I wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole.

I haven't researched the "grandfather clause" (if there is any) that might have been in the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934 that would allow people to keep sawed-off rifles that were already so modified BEFORE the new federal law took effect.

These guns were produced from 1907 to 1930, per this collector's site.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/hamilton-rifle-co-27-22-r15796/

So it's POSSIBLE that the gun was modified from a rifle into a pistol before Congress passed a federal law banning that.

It's also possible that the gun was a rifle in its original form up to some point after 1934, and then somebody illegally made a "pistol" (really, legally, an unregistered short-barreled rifle or "SBR" out of it).
 

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Here's the grandfather clause from the original 1934 Act. The law said owners of the newly-restricted firearms had 60 days to register them, and then the law said:

Section 5(b)

"Whenever on trial for a violation of section 6 hereof
the by possession. defendant is shown to have or to have had possession of such firearm at any time after such period of sixty days without having registered as required by this section, such possession shall create a presumption that such firearm came into the possession of the defendant subsequent to the effective date of this Act, but this presumption shall not
be conclusive. "

Forgive the obvious errors in the above-- this is a copy of a computer-generated conversion of imaged text to a digital text file.

https://archive.org/stream/NationalFirearmsActOf1934/National_Firearms_Act_of_1934_djvu.txt

This grandfather clause is less than clear. One part of the law says that even innocent owners of short-barreled rifles need to register them and have only 60 days from the enactment of that Act to do so. Then another part of the law says that the law will presume (but it's a rebuttable presumption) that if you are found to possess an NFA-restricted weapon more than 60 days after the law takes effect, you are presumed to have obtained that weapon after the law took effect. WHY WOULD THEY WRITE IT THAT WAY? WHO CARES WHEN YOU CAME INTO POSSESSION OF IT, IF YOU HAD AN AFFIRMATIVE DUTY TO KNOW THE LAW AND OBEY THE REGISTRATION REQUIREMENT ??

Anyhow, unless you have some really good and well-documented history of this gun being in your family AS A SAWED-OFF RIFLE, modified prior to 1934, it's a moot point.
 

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OFF- TOPIC RANT: The law should consider a cut-down rifle to be a handgun.
Anybody who can legally buy an ordinary handgun should be able to buy one that was originally a rifle and then cut down.
What's the PRACTICAL difference ???
Is a sawed-off .410 shotgun with a 6" barrel and a pistol grip only any DEADLIER than a Taurus Judge or S&W Governor that shoots .410 shotshells, but is legally considered a pistol?

Why is it legal to buy a T/C Encore rifle with a 20" barrel, and to buy a T/C Encore pistol with a 15" barrel, BUT NOT to buy the rifle and trim 5" off the barrel yourself?

I think all concealable fireams, whether handguns, SBS, SBR, or AOW (handgun with a vertical fore-end grip) should be classified together has "handguns" (regardless of smooth bore or rifled bore, regardless of what stocks or grips it has). Buy them from an FFL at age 21.

Any weapon with a 16" or longer barrel and OAL of 26" or greater should be a "long gun" (same classification for rifles or shotguns). Buy them from an FFL at age 18.
 

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Well said.
 

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This grandfather clause is less than clear. One part of the law says that even innocent owners of short-barreled rifles need to register them and have only 60 days from the enactment of that Act to do so. Then another part of the law says that the law will presume (but it's a rebuttable presumption) that if you are found to possess an NFA-restricted weapon more than 60 days after the law takes effect, you are presumed to have obtained that weapon after the law took effect. WHY WOULD THEY WRITE IT THAT WAY? WHO CARES WHEN YOU CAME INTO POSSESSION OF IT, IF YOU HAD AN AFFIRMATIVE DUTY TO KNOW THE LAW AND OBEY THE REGISTRATION REQUIREMENT ??
It would appear that the ATF (and its predecessors) has been consistently inconsistent since the beginning. :lol:
 

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OFF- TOPIC RANT: The law should consider a cut-down rifle to be a handgun.
Why should there be any such "law" in the first place?

Disclaimer - it's a rhetorical question and we already know the answer.
 

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Lawyer and Gun Activist
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That looks like it. If I got the tax stamp would that make it legal? And if so what would I do with it in the mean time?
You can't register it now, if it was never in BATF's National Firearms Register and Transfer Record.

If your dad registered it to himself, and then he died and left you this gun in his will or if you inherited it automatically because he died without a will, THEN you could get a tax-free transfer into your name. Assuming ATF can find the paperwork. That may be a little difficult without a serial number.
 

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Yeah, I'd go with the "delete this thread" advice and then destroy the gun.

I wouldn't even try to legally deactivate it.

If the feds could prove you knowingly kept it after you (or a reasonable person in your shoes) would have known it was a modified short-barreled rifle not in its original (C&R) configuration, during that time span between this awareness on your part and the day you render the weapon permanently inoperable, you broke the law and could later (even several years later) be prosecuted for it.

I've never HEARD of such a prosecution commencing regarding a gun that was already deactivated before the authorities found out about it, but it's possible.

It's LESS LIKELY to happen if the feds never find the gun, and only have an internet post archived that discusses the gun, shows pics of the gun, etc.
No prosecutor would want to try to take that to court and prove you possessed something that they don't physically have and have never had a gun expert examine and write a report on.

So, I'd hacksaw that cheap ugly thing up into pieces and throw them in several different trash cans, toss the pieces in a deep lake, etc. Make it disappear.
 
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