Jeep... I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOO @#[email protected]#[email protected]#[email protected]# mad

Discussion in 'Off-topic' started by TippinTaco, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. TippinTaco

    TippinTaco New Member

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    So some of you that are knowledgable about the brand Jeep know that they offered last year a LifeTime PowerTrain Warranty with all their Jeep models.. Most of you aren't aware that I'm a multi-generation jJeep owner and have enjoyed these vehicles since I was a young boy helping my dad do upgrades and running Tellico Plains. Well in 2008 my wife and I took the plunge and decided to move up and trade in a 2004 TJ Wrangler for the JK Trail Rated Jeep Wrangler. Wider wheel base, more room, more economical, and could be very comfortabl in long rides, in fact we drove this jeep to KeyWest in May and enjoyed the entire drive.

    Well time has come and I've been doing my upgrades to the jeep now that it's broken in and covered the 35,000 new owner warranty. I've installed the 3"BDS Full suspension lift kit, rims and tires, hi-lift jacks, qik-disconnect sway-bar, cd radio and the list goes on.

    Well my next door neighbor is a Tier 4 Mechanic at Troncalli Jeep and Dodge. Tier 4 means he basically runs the show and knows his ins and outs when it comes to some of the most sophisticated computers in these car and trucks and practically can build them from scratch. I met with him the other day in regards to a new Ring and Pinion Install that I need done to both differentials front and back. I'm a great jeep mechanic, but in the 15+ years working on them with my pops he never got to that stage of teaching me how to do the upgrades and sadly my family lost him 2 years ago.

    So looking for guidance from my neighbor which is a great man, just informed me that by doing the upgrade it will void out my Lifetime powertrain warranty, heres the big kicker: EVEN IF TRONCALLI DOES IT it voids my warranty.

    I've never been so angry... But just as I told him I'm going to move forward with my upgrades as I had planned.
     
  2. CountryGun

    CountryGun New Member

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    Seems like you ought to be due a rebate on the balance of your extended warranty. If jeep refuses to reimburse you, I'd think they would have to honor the warranty. Tell them up front what you want to do, and demand a refund on the balance.
     

  3. vr6glidriver

    vr6glidriver New Member

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    Just playing devil's advocate :twisted: :

    Why should the factory warranty cover after-market parts that change the manufacturer calculated tolerances, stresses, and life of parts that the warranty is based on in the first place? It's no longer an OEM vehicle and wouldn't be covered under the OEM warranty.


    ...that being said, do they offer any kind of extended warranty from Jeep (or other providers) that would cover the Jeep with mods? I know it would cost above and beyond the original vehicle and parts, but you've modified the Jeep above and beyond the original parts...

    ....and for the record, ran in to this problem as well with my F150 and VW ... though either of those had lifetime warranties, I did void what I had left of the manufacturer on both, so I understand!
     
  4. oxfat

    oxfat Member

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    What part of "Trail Rated" doesn't Jeep want to stand behind?
     
  5. mountainpass

    mountainpass Under Scrutiny

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    Tippin, Chrysler was hurting, like the rest of the American auto industry when they announced the lifetime warranty. Now of course the new Chrysler is looking for anything to keep from honoring the old warranty.

    Also, did Jeep offer the gear you are going to use in a production 2008 Wrangler(non-Rubicon because of the axle difference). I'm guessing you are going lower than 4.11?
     
  6. a_springfield

    a_springfield Well-Known Member

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    did the lift not void all the warranty's
     
  7. TippinTaco

    TippinTaco New Member

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    Its a powertrain warranty, the lift doesn't have anything to do with the PT so that cant void the warranty. If they tried to blackball me on the warranty they would have to prove that the lift affected the power train, this they would have a hard time doing.

    I'm actually going for the 4.11 gears and I offered to pay Troncalli to install OEM ring and Pinion in at their cost to keep the warranty. I was told that any alterations done to the differentials front or back with factory or OEM parts would void the warranty because the Jeep didn't have these installed at the time of purchase. So een if I pay them $800 in labor and supply the factory parts, they plan to blackball me the moment I bring itin for the upgrade.So :censored: them.

    I personally agree with your entire post bro. but the problem is as I mentioned above, they wont even allow me to request them to install the 4.11 gears that I need to support the 35x12.50 R17 Dick Cepek Tires.. I've lost about 3mpg because of th tire upgrade, and to reclaim that power I have to get the R&P redone in front and back.


    I'm not griping because they denied a claim. I'm ranting because they plan to denyany claims if I upgrade the R&P through them or any where else. So basically I'm :censored: unless I decide that the PT warranty isn't worth being able to enjoy my jeep the way a jeep is meant to be enjoyed. Jeeps are meant to be upgraded. They know this, chrysler knows this, the dealership knows this and every person who owns a jeep knows this. Thats why they offered the PT warranty on them and obviously added the claus that if any modifications tot he PT in any fashion are done it would render the warranty null and void. I feel for the bait and switch of buying a new car and feeling safe under the Life Time PT warranty.... This is just another reason wy jeep needs to become its own company and break off from Chrysler...
     
  8. rmodel65

    rmodel65 Yukon Cornelius

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  9. psrumors

    psrumors Well-Known Member

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    A lift with bigger tires does void the entire drivetrain warranty.

    Added stress of the tires can and does affect axles (bearings, seals, etc), transmission, transfercase & engine. That is their way out.
     
  10. commodore_dude

    commodore_dude Active Member

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    +1. I remember when the lifetime gimmick started, everyone on my Jeep forum picked that out as a disqualifier straight away... it's a potentially useful thing to have for a commuter or minivan, but not for a Wrangler if you plan on having any fun with it unfortunately.
     
  11. rmodel65

    rmodel65 Yukon Cornelius

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    why would you take your car in for service with huge oversize tires?? easy to swap to the stockers
     
  12. Hawkdriver

    Hawkdriver Member

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    Dealers vary, so with that said I suggest you visit another dealer and pose the same question about using OEM parts and ratio to upgrade your gearing. Your dealer sounds like they suck. I have seen plenty of mod friendly dealers and about the same many that weren't. In fact I am pretty sure if you are using OEM parts, especially parts there were available for that model in options, are fully covered to include many factory after market parts. Many dealers advertise factory warranty on the "Mopar" long arm suspension lift and associated driveline upgrades that are basically rebadged Rubicon Express long arm lift and shafts.

    With that said, what you want is a reasonable gear change, but when you add 35inch tires, lift to properly clear 35s, it won't be hard to "prove" those modifications caused a driveline related failure. First, the inner C's on the front axle are very prone to bending with just road use and bigger tires without being gusseted. Stock trackbar brackets that are poorly extended or accounted for with some lift kit solutions are very common to shear right off the axle itself. There are many companies that properly deal with this, but many don't by just providing a track bar bracket extension placing more leverage on the trackbar bracket itself causing failure.

    Driveline, more specifically driveshafts that aren't addressed when doing a larger lift are prone to failure due to excessive angle "could" cause damage to either the transmission or transfer case. If you have and auto, the front driveshaft is susceptible to hitting either the stock transmission skid plate or transmission pan lip itself during flex. Add in a vehicle with larger tires that is improperly geared can place additional or excessive wear on the transmission itself (which of course you know because you want to regear).

    Larger tires eat stock ball joints. Very common failures. Dynatrac and Poly Performance both address this now.

    I'm not saying you didn't think of all this prior to improving your Jeep.

    It won't be hard for a dealer to "prove" something mod related caused a powertrain issue down the line for sure. I fully agree they are FOS in most cases, but that's how they are going to do it. By the time you try and fight the issue first through dealer mediation, then pay for a lawyer, your time spent just isn't worth it. In a perfect world, the dealer (due to the Moss Magnuson Act) can't void your ENTIRE warranty or "black list" you for one modification, but they have and the will in some cases.

    Best bet is to go to a different dealer or find a mod friendly one in the future. I've been lucky in many respects there, but when you start lifting the Jeep I just can't expect the dealer to cover everything in the powertrain warranty like it was stock.

    No matter what you do, it's a slippery slope. Just Empty Every Pocket.
     
  13. psrumors

    psrumors Well-Known Member

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    Why should the dealer / manufacturer be responsible for a warped axle in a Dana 30 or 35 due to over size tires?

    We have had guys in the Trailblazer SS group running low 12s high 11s with nitrous pop a motor then return the thing to stock in hopes the dealer wont catch on. They then get pissed if the dealer finds something to void the warranty.

    Are there ways around getting caught? Sure.

    Is it right?

    Jeeps were meant to wheel and mod, been that way for decades now. Do it, have fun, make it what you want but when you significantly change the dynamics don't expect the manufacturer to warranty it.

    My '05 Rubicon was out of warranty @ 3200 miles and 4 months old. None of the suspension components were OEM, nor were the driveshafts. I jumpered the lockers to work when I told them too and did several other tricks.

    My dealer thought it was the way the jeep should have been built and were very friendly about the mods but of course I never had a warranty claim outside of an A/C compressor and alternator.
     
  14. seajay

    seajay NRA Certified Instructor

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    BTW. Your lift alone changes the dynamics and stress factors on the drive train from what it was OEM. U-joints are at different angles, drag is different and other stress factors come into play. If you wanted the OEM warranty then you should have left it OEM.
     
  15. TippinTaco

    TippinTaco New Member

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    Troncalli cleared my lift as being supported because it was done by a Dealer approved modder. Up till this date they've not complained once in regards to the 3"BDS full suspension kit. I've tried playing by their book as much as I can to do my best to retain that PowerTrain warranty, but obviously some of you and I at the time of purchase understand that the LT PT Warranty was meant to be voided out with in a few years of it being in play. Jeeps are meant to be off-road toys, and a company that speaks, preaches, and tells people how they should modify their jeeps, I would think they were a little more supportive. But I'll take it up the rear, I'll continue to do my mods and continue to enjoy one of the best toys I have.

    Hawkdriver thanks for your write up I appreciated the read. I knew about the majority oif the things you wrote up and you all were right, no matter if my lift that was professionally installed and approved by the dealer, they would still attempt to use that to disqualify my Powertrain warranty. Oh well lifes goes on. Luckily I've had no issues with my jeep.
     
  16. mrtopher1980

    mrtopher1980 New Member

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    Here is my take being a certified VW/Audi tech working on a dealer level, working for several performance shops, owning my own performance shop, and currently working in the aftermarket industry doing tech support and R&D. Obviously not Jeep specific but much of the "legal" side doesn't vary from brand to brand. I've been on both sides of the table fixing factory vehicles and then also being the one voiding warranties.

    First off the dealer itself. The dealer is a representative of the manufacture, we'll use Jeep so I don't have to keep tying out manufacture. This means that they can sell you a Jeep, they can sell you Jeep parts, they can fix your Jeep but as a representative they have absolutely no say in what is and is not covered. Your dealer saying a lift is ok but gears is not ok if not officially from Jeep means nothing at all, it is not their call to make. Your dealer may have said your lift was ok but if you go to another dealer they may say it is not ok and be able to provide something from Jeep to prove this.

    I see this all the time. In my business we and many of our competitors have actual manufacture dealers as dealers for our products. They will often misspeak and say hey if we install this in your car since we are a dealer it is not void. The customers may believe that hey since the dealer installs it the warranty is not void. Bottom line is the dealer has no say in this at all, their warranty is void if the manufacture decides it is (with a reason but more on that later) even if work is being done at the dealer who said it isn't. In reality it is the dealer looking the other way, those that sell and install aftermarket parts probably know that they don't cause the problems people think they do so they aren't looking to void anyones warranty just because the parts exist on the car. If there is a problem and a regional manager who works directly for the manufacture comes to make a call then and only then is the warranty actually determined to be still in tact or void.

    Now say this rep comes and "voids" your warranty. Unless there is cause such as proving the car was deemed totaled by an insurance company or used as a fleet vehicle, even racing in some cases the only part that is void would be the one affected by the parts you replaced.

    We'll use an example of software flashing. If your engine control module is flashed with aftermarket software even though it was never touched physically or even removed from the car that part is no longer covered under warranty you modified that specific part. This one is an easy one to hide and often gets warrantied anyway as any problem is usually a legit problem. However this is a good one as an example of how one modification can affect other parts. Say you have a problem with a taillight that is constantly blowing bulbs out, they find out the car has software installed and they want to void your warranty, nothing even in the most advanced vehicles with fully connected can-bus systems would cause the bulbs to blow. They cannot void your warranty for this and deny you. Now this is a turbo charged vehicle and you are increasing boost from 10psi stock to 20psi through the software (very common) and the turbo chucks a wheel. In this case the software has directly affected the turbo and therefore does void the warranty of the turbo. More boost doesn't necessarily mean anything if the waterpump failed though and would be a stretch to deny or void your warranty for software on the pump.


    In this case we have larger tires, a suspension lift and gears.

    Breaking each one down, larger tires put more load on the entire drivetrain, from the lugs right to the engine itself, they often weigh more and this along with the extra leverage requires more power. Companies such as Lamborghini will not warranty a clutch (most companies don't period) if you have aftermarket wheels in a larger overall diameter to stock or weigh more because they overwork the drivetrain. This would be very similar and even if your dealer says bigger tires are ok and even if that is Jeeps image I would never assume my warranty would be retained if installed. Even if I had the dealer put bigger tires on before I bought it doesn't change that.

    Suspension lift, lets assume stock tires. This is not quite as extreme as tires surprisingly, the only thing directly affected would be certain suspension components, if you blew out a joint on a driveshaft it could be caused by the new angles that were not factory. However you blow out a joint in your front suspension nothing there changed there is no valid correlation between your lift and the failure so your warranty would be in tact.

    Gears gets funny. You are changing load on the engine and the rest of the drivetrain, in this case however you are reducing it putting less tress on all the parts and actually possibly neutralizing the change in the increaesed load brought on by the tires. But you have put in a human element, if not shimmed right or shafts not reinstalled properly even if done by the dealer those parts were no longer factory and would only be covered by any warranty the dealer offers or possibly limited warranty on parts bought from and installed by your dealer. Many have 12/12 warranties on parts bought and installed there, like shocks, batteries etc. Anything possibly damaged by opening the diff housing and pulling things a part would be void. Trying to outright say however that swapping gears voids the warranty on your engine or transmission is pushing it, especially if this is a gearing option available to you from the manufacture, they have basically said that yeah it works just fine with those parts. Even using aftermarket gears should not void your warranty on parts not touched directly by the install.

    All of that is sort of up to the manufacture to say, they can claim in their documents that outright using any of those parts voids your warranty, in reality and the ways the laws are written it is not that clear, if you try to fight you'll lose they have more lawyers, more time more money i have seen it. However also despite all their power you can usually come to some agreement. I have seen people with 150K on a car that as long as they prove they made an effort to maintain it have items partially covered under warranty.

    Someone mentioned the magnus moss warranty act, that is one of the most misquoted documents in the automotive aftermarket. This is sort of where the whole can't void your whole warranty only the affected parts comes from and is often referenced, but really that comes more from just general consumer protection laws. The main point and purpose of this was so your dealer couldn't void your warranty if you changed your own oil, or require you to go to them for service in order to maintain your warranty. This has been used to defend aftermarket parts used for modification but isn't really what it mean.

    Example with the warranty act Jeep can't say that you MUST buy their airfilter, you can go to autozone buy a fram air filter and use it. To its intent this meant a factory replica drop in filter and would include say a drop in K&N filter. People have used it with success to also mean some sort of new airbox entirely, filter on a stock, whatever would not be a drop in replacement, but that is not really what it was meant to be. There is a slight loop hole in favor of the manufacture in that if the part is covered and paid for as a service item for no charge then they can argue that you cannot use your own part. So if Jeep said change your air filter at 20K miles and did not provide one you can use whatever you want. If Jeep said change your air filter at 20K miles and said we pay for it come in its free, then they have some ground to stand on when you put your filter on a stick on the car, I have never seen that used though.

    Again since this act is referring to aftermarket parts and not so much modifications the tires and suspension are not really covered at all by it. Although normal consumer protection laws in regards to if it didn't cause the problem it can't be outright said to void it, proof is on the manufacture but good luck. Gears however in this case are 100% factory gears you are asking to be installed by an authorized representative of the manufacture. Arguing that they allow these same techs to fit these same parts while performing warranty work and back it is a decent place to stand on. Arguing that these same parts could have been had in your vehicle is ground to stand on in regards to how bad could they be if you'd sell it to me new.

    Unfortunately if you call Jeep they are going to say you can't modify anything because that is what their sheet of paper they are reading tells them to say, the person making 8 bucks an hour has no clue as to your actual rights they are protecting Jeep. The dealer unfortunately can't speak for Jeep as even though they are a representative they are not authorized to make the call, your warranty contract is with Jeep not the dealer. From my experience with this you can't really know for sure until something breaks and you see what the reps final call is. They'll never outright tell you what is and isn't covered, but at the same time they usually got to their job since they are smart and they are into cars/trucks/jeeps,

    A lot of regional reps in my market drive cars with our products on them and know they are not the cause, sometimes even their company demos are the ones with our stuff on them :). But I've seen them also void warranties of people with our products and our competitors simply because they were uninformed about what they actually do.

    Your best bet is to try and get a statement from jeep based on that the gears you are installing are a factory part installed by an authorized dealer and see what they say or possibly the regional rep who would be the one voiding your warranty down the road, I know you are buddies with the guy at the dealer but its not his job or his call to make.

    Also I've never seen a warranty that covered anything but defective parts. This is often confused, just because a part breaks doesn't mean it was defective. Wear items are often not covered because they wore they weren't defective. So yes I get that you have a powertrain warranty and it is supposed to be lifetime but it really is very limited. They can easily say yeah we covered defects for a liftetime but this part wore out, it didn't break normal wear and tear is not covered. Warranties are rarely what they are made out to be. Brake pads from pep boys with a lifetime warranty specifically say if you use up all the pad that is not defective you used up their life, If half the life is left and the pads crumble apart that is defective, granted I've never seen a counter guy deny them..


    Personally I'd put the gears in no matter what, but I'm also the guy who brought in his 2L 4 cylinder car with a GT35 running 30+psi of boost and making 500+whp for his final service acting like it was just stock :). I had no problems by the way but services were separate from warranty so I didn't expect any.
     
  17. EmergencyNrse

    EmergencyNrse Member

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    Sorry about your delema. Seems ALL after market upgrades void warranties.

    I was out on the Rubicon with a legend- Mark Smith. He's everything Jeep & Off-road.
    I have been working with his granddaughter Sadie and she's incredible.
    (Why she's an ER nurse with all that off-roading in the family I'll never know)
    ...but I digress.


    I'm in need of a mechanic to do the 8.8 Ford Explorer upgrade... the one with the TracLoc.
    My DANA 35's are hurtin' and if I make it back to GA I would rather upgrade than replace.

    It will put me up in 44's with lockers, 4-wheel disc brakes but keep me with a decent highway speed & MPG.
    Don't need 4:10... just the stock, factory stuff.

    Anyone?
     
  18. tgrt

    tgrt New Member

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    I bought my 07 JK before the lifetime warranty thing. They tried to sell me one after the fact for some awful amount. I seem to recall reading about any modification voiding the warranty. And it may not be covered by the Magnusson-Moss Act, because it is not a standard warranty.

    I knew it wasn't going to work for me, because I already had plans to upgrade to 5.13s, but I wouldn't have paid for it anyway. Unfortunately, gears do have an effect on the rest of the drive train. For one they increase the spin of the drive shaft which can throw it out of its balance curve. At least one person that I've heard has cracked a transfer case because of the vibration. (And that was with aftermarket correct length shafts.)

    I'm not justifying their position, but on this warranty they probably have good standing. That said, I wouldn't worry about it. Modify your Jeep the way you want and enjoy it. Take it in for service if something goes wrong. As long as it isn't the differential there is no reason you need to tell them that you upgraded the gears.

    By the way, I have the stock 4.10 gears that came with my Jeep if you're interested.
     
  19. phantoms

    phantoms Senior Mumbler

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    Driveshafts do not have a balance curve, they are either balanced or not. I'd say it's more likely that your friend had an aftermarket driveshaft that was out of balance, improper angles that caused a vibration, etc., than it was gears. There is so much automotive misinformation and lies on the net that it's not even funny. One of the biggest is K&N filters. They are some of the worse things you can put on a vehicle, especially a computer controlled one. Another misconception is that a dirty air filter will effect your fuel mileage. Maybe on a carb vehicle, but not on a computer controlled vehicle. The fuel is metered depending on the amount of air coming into an engine, reduce that air and the controller will reduce the amount of fuel injected. Not to say that performance won't suffer though.

    Many times, the OEM choice is better for fuel economy, longevity and performance than the aftermarket alternatives, but mis-info and ad campaigns sell parts. 99.9% of the time, the OEM part will fit better, work better, last much longer and be a much better quality part. Sometimes there are quality aftermarket parts and sometimes there are performance parts that really provide a benefit, but don't take everything you read on the net as the truth. Talk to a good mechanic or tech whose been in the business for many years, and not just one whose interested in selling you their product line.

    Back to the warranty discussion, I agree with most of what mrtopher1980 said. If there's a dispute over a warranty, the manufacturer can send someone out to inspect whether the part is covered and what caused it's demise. If it's truly a warranty issue, they'll usually cover it. If it's determined to be caused by an aftermarket part, then they won't cover it, just as they wouldn't cover an engine you ran low on oil, etc. The Dealers will sometimes mislead you and this is why buying and dealing with a good Dealer matters (it's also why when times got tough, a lot of the shadier Dealer's lost their franchise).
     
  20. mrtopher1980

    mrtopher1980 New Member

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    The loss in performance is where the loss in fuel economy is. An engine is just an airpump, in applications without forced induction (yes some engines don't have boost as silly as it sounds) the engine is literally sucking the air in with the intake stroke of the piston. That intake stroke is being powered by a cylinder that is in its combustion stroke. The more efficient that intake stroke is the less power that is robbed from the combustion stroke and can be put to the ground to move you forward. A dirty or even clean but restrictive intake filter will decrease the efficiency which means it takes more power to move the same distance, to make more power you need more fuel. More power can mean more heat that the engine has to try and remove either through the coolant or oil which is energy that was lost. Yes modern day fuel injected cars with Mass Air flow sensors can make adjustments for this somewhat, but they cannot make up for the loss in efficiency.

    In regards to performance gains of aftermarket filters, I will not touch brand names but they do work. Do they give up some cleaning performance in favor of some efficiency though. Are they for everyone, not at all and I certainly wouldn't buy one just because it was reusable if that was my only purpose as that reduced cleaning performance can haunt you. Even then the worst engines today running high flow filters will generally out last engines of 30 years ago by 10s of thousands of miles, if performance is your goal and not 250K miles out of an engine they do work.

    It was about 8 years ago but I was working at a shop with a dyno I spent a day throwing a bunch of parts at my car at the time a 1.8L 4 cylinder turbo charged making probably 225 whp range on average I think, nothing crazy but not bad (roughly 325whp now). On that car I was able to see 12hp gain to the wheels comparing a brand new factory paper filter with a foam layer to a well known brand oiled gauze filter to a well known in the european market oiled foam filter. This was not a filter on stick application simply a drop into the stock airbox style. That was roughly a 5% gain in performance from stock to the foam filter, gains with the gauze filter were roughly 3%. That is not bad for $40, if you don't care if the engine lasts forever (I don't) then it is a decent bang for your buck. Most people though I wouldn't waste a dime on one.