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That is not my comment.
Hmmm, swapping rounds
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I am not trying to "scare" anybody into anything. All I am sharing with you is what I read from one of Massad Ayoob's columns. You can take this opinion that he shared and do what ever you want with it. I happen to think that he is the best gunwriter and self defense expert in the country. I believe most of what he writes.Rammstein said:
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I know you didn't intend to "scare" anyone, but the gun community has a problem with circulating bad information sometimes.Doc Holliday said:
I know Ayoob is highly respected in the gun community, but when one writes something and try to pass it off as fact there should be real substance behind it. Substance in the way of evidence where this is shown to happen to a statistically significant number. One or two cases does not make it statistically significant, even more so if they are from occupied territory.
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So this guy believes that Ayoob lies about all of the cases that he has had first hand knowledge of? Ayoob is lying about being called to the stand as an expert witness? I don't think so....Malum Prohibitum said:
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Maybe Massad Ayoob has encountered such a case more recently?
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From Combat Handguns May 2007 by Massad Ayoob
Some of this is paraphrased but most is the orginal text from this months column by Ayoob in Combat Handguns. It is FYI and you can do or think whatever you want to about it.
Another myth is that "there's no reason to not use handloads for self defense, and there has never been a case of anyone getting into trouble for using them. "Thats an urban myth on both counts."
Consider State of New Jersey v. Daniel Bias. Bias was a shooting entusiast who brewed up some very mild .38 Special handloads for his wife, who was extremely sensitive to recoil. The night came when he found her on the floor holding that gun to her head, he said and when he tried to grab it away from her it discharged sending a fatal bullet into the brain. Because the mild loads generated very little gunshot residue out of the barrell of the 6 inch Smith and Wesson 586 .357 in question no such residue was found in the wound.
Ingnoring his claims that the rounds were reloads the police crime lab noted they had been put in Federal .38 Special +p casings and went on the assumption that they were factory +p rounds. The +p rounds that were tested of course deposited gunshot residue at much further distance. As a result they argued in court that the muzzle was too distant from her head to be self inflicted. They charged him with murder.
Long story short-three trials later he was convicted of manslaughter. The court refused to accept his word that handloads were in the gun and the defense was never able to duplicate reloads that would have shown the ammo in the death weapon was so mild that it wouldn't have deposited GSR at the distance the defendant describe.
Ayoob goes on to talk about another case:
In State of N. Hampshire v. James Kennedy, an officer was carrying handloads in his privately owned, department approved .45 acp when he got into a struggle with a violent suspect. The man grabbed the officer's pistol and pulled it toward his own face and it discharged causing a wound that maimed him for life. A large part of the prosecutors theory was that any cop who loaded his own ammo would do so because "regular ammo wasn't deadly enough for him" and he was obviously a "Rambo" type. Long story short-officer was acquitted but had to go through an ordeal that probably wouldn't have happen had he been carrying regular factory ammo.
I don't reload anyway but I thought that I would share with the forum some of the info I have learned.
Some of this is paraphrased but most is the orginal text from this months column by Ayoob in Combat Handguns. It is FYI and you can do or think whatever you want to about it.
Another myth is that "there's no reason to not use handloads for self defense, and there has never been a case of anyone getting into trouble for using them. "Thats an urban myth on both counts."
Consider State of New Jersey v. Daniel Bias. Bias was a shooting entusiast who brewed up some very mild .38 Special handloads for his wife, who was extremely sensitive to recoil. The night came when he found her on the floor holding that gun to her head, he said and when he tried to grab it away from her it discharged sending a fatal bullet into the brain. Because the mild loads generated very little gunshot residue out of the barrell of the 6 inch Smith and Wesson 586 .357 in question no such residue was found in the wound.
Ingnoring his claims that the rounds were reloads the police crime lab noted they had been put in Federal .38 Special +p casings and went on the assumption that they were factory +p rounds. The +p rounds that were tested of course deposited gunshot residue at much further distance. As a result they argued in court that the muzzle was too distant from her head to be self inflicted. They charged him with murder.
Long story short-three trials later he was convicted of manslaughter. The court refused to accept his word that handloads were in the gun and the defense was never able to duplicate reloads that would have shown the ammo in the death weapon was so mild that it wouldn't have deposited GSR at the distance the defendant describe.
Ayoob goes on to talk about another case:
In State of N. Hampshire v. James Kennedy, an officer was carrying handloads in his privately owned, department approved .45 acp when he got into a struggle with a violent suspect. The man grabbed the officer's pistol and pulled it toward his own face and it discharged causing a wound that maimed him for life. A large part of the prosecutors theory was that any cop who loaded his own ammo would do so because "regular ammo wasn't deadly enough for him" and he was obviously a "Rambo" type. Long story short-officer was acquitted but had to go through an ordeal that probably wouldn't have happen had he been carrying regular factory ammo.
I don't reload anyway but I thought that I would share with the forum some of the info I have learned.
So from the article we know the following:
1. The first case is not a self defense situation, so it is irrelevant to the discussion of using handloads for self defense.
2. This basically sums up the second story: "Long story short-officer was acquitted"
The conclusion is that no case has been provided that using reloads will result in a criminal conviction. Also, even if the officer was convicted one person is not a statistically significant number to worry people about using handloads.
1. The first case is not a self defense situation, so it is irrelevant to the discussion of using handloads for self defense.
2. This basically sums up the second story: "Long story short-officer was acquitted"
The conclusion is that no case has been provided that using reloads will result in a criminal conviction. Also, even if the officer was convicted one person is not a statistically significant number to worry people about using handloads.
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Regular handgun ammo was not deadly enough for him? :-s
Is there no "relevance" rule of evidence in New Hampshire? :lol:
Sorry, Doc Holliday, but the information in your post does not seem to back up the point being made, although it is difficult to tell from such little information.
Is there no "relevance" rule of evidence in New Hampshire? :lol:
Sorry, Doc Holliday, but the information in your post does not seem to back up the point being made, although it is difficult to tell from such little information.
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Although I don't disagree with you conclusions, I will stick to factory loads for my carry. In the first case it is not the fact that it is not a self defense shooting it is that the court didn't take his word that he had handloads in the firearm and they tested another load. I think the case that Ayoob is trying to make is that could happen to a shooter in a self defense case.Rammstein said:
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I don't think he was accusing you af anything. Rather, he was attacking the "conventional wisdom" regarding handloads.Doc Holliday said:
Oh, and I believe just about everything Massad Ayoob writes, too. Just so you know. I just do not buy the handload = murder argument, and I am not sure Massad Ayoob has stated that prosecutors will go after people in a self defense shooting just because of it. Well, that it has ever happened in ral life, anyway. Rather, Ayoob has pointed out two difficulties in cases of which he is aware. I am not sure either difficulty applies to a self defense shooting, especially in Georgia, rather than New Jersey (isn't it a crime there to have hollow points?). Interestingly, I have read about the two cases above, but much earlier than May of 2007, so Ayoob must have written about them in the past.
Neither of them really supports the point, given what little info is stated.
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I don't think he was accusing you af anything. Rather, he was attacking the "conventional wisdom" regarding handloads.Malum Prohibitum said:
Oh, and I believe just about everything Massad Ayoob writes, too. Just so you know. I just do not buy the handload = murder argument, and I am not sure Massad Ayoob has stated that prosecutors will go after people in a self defense shooting just because of it. Well, that it has ever happened in ral life, anyway. Rather, Ayoob has pointed out two difficulties in cases of which he is aware. I am not sure either difficulty applies to a self defense shooting, especially in Georgia, rather than New Jersey (isn't it a crime there to have hollow points?). Interestingly, I have read about the two cases above, but much earlier than May of 2007, so Ayoob must have written about them in the past.
Neither of them really supports the point, given what little info is stated.[/quote:60rnqigc]
I think that column that you are thinking of is in an earlier copy of CH from this year because I remember reading it too.
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Me, too.Doc Holliday said:
Not for liability reasons, but because I think it is hard to beat some of the factory loads out there for quality. I currently carry 230 grain (heavy) Federal Hydrashocks. I do not think any handload I could make would necessarily make much of a difference over this round.
That new bullet in the "picture of bullet exiting the muzzle" looks interesting, too, but I see the description under the picture stated Federal is not yet selling it outside of law enforcement.
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Me, too.Malum Prohibitum said:
Not for liability reasons, but because I think it is hard to beat some of the factory loads out there for quality. I currently carry 230 grain (heavy) Federal Hydrashocks. I do not think any handload I could make would necessarily make much of a difference over this round.
That new bullet in the "picture of bullet exiting the muzzle" looks interesting, too, but I see the description under the picture stated Federal is not yet selling it outside of law enforcement.[/quote:32hctkc0]
I read that the 230gr. Hydrashoks were about the best load one could carry in .45. That was the load that I carried in my G21 before I "down graded" to 9mm but "upgraded" from Glock to Sig. :lol:
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Upgraded from Glock to H&K . . .Doc Holliday said:
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Upgraded from Glock to H&K . . .Malum Prohibitum said:
[/quote:1754h1mm]Upgraded from Glock to (fill in almost any other firearms manufacturer here) :lol:
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Upgraded from Glock to H&K . . .USMC - Retired said:
[/quote:yqhhqkaq]Upgraded from Glock to (fill in almost any other firearms manufacturer here) :lol:[/quote:yqhhqkaq]
Well I'm not going to bash the Glock. It is a great firearm, it just felt like I was toting a brick on my side. I want another one, either a 19 or 23.
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Upgraded from Glock to H&K . . .USMC - Retired said:
[/quote:a33wii21]Upgraded from Glock to (fill in almost any other firearms manufacturer here) :lol:[/quote:a33wii21]
What does that say about me going from a 9mm Glock to a .380 Walther PPK/S ? Except for the fact that I'm a cheap bas****
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