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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
All right, here I go again!

Im reading about bullets compressing into the casing and putting marker on your rounds. Imm assuming (yes, thats ass-u-meing) that this is from taking out your carry rounds and replacing them with FMJ for plinking/ target shooting. Am I right.

Why not just get a few extra mags and leave your carry ammo home?

Be nice. Remember, Im a rookie at this. Down boy! Niiiiicccceeee!!!
 

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I use extra mags for target shooting/playing at the range, but I still have to eject the round in the chamber when I get there, and rechamber it when I leave. It's the chambering/rechambering that can cause setback issues.

I inspect my carry ammo for visible issues after every practice session. Call me stupid, but I try to keep the rounds that have already been chambered in the bottom of my mag. I try to shoot my carry ammo every six weeks or so anyhow. I like to stay proficient and familiar with it. I shoot 115 FMJs at the range with my Glock, and 147 JHPs for carry. If I need to shoot in a self defense situation, I don't want it to have been 6 months since I felt the stronger ammo. The same goes with my Walther PPK/S and the 95 gr fmj that I practice with and the 102 JHPs I carry.
 

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Like Adam5 said, it is not the problem of the cartridges in the magazine, but the chambering/extraction of the round already in the chamber.

From the test I did with my current carry ammo I see no reason to go to lengths to mark and move around the two rounds that normally are in the pipe.

Here is the test that I did:
I used a Winchester White Box Hollow Point cartridge and a Glock 19. Released slide by way of slide stop.

Here are the results:

WWB 9mm Bullet Set Back Test
Normal - 2.8cm
After 5 - 2.8cm
After 10 - 2.8cm
After 15 - 2.8cm
After 20 - 2.8cm
After 25 - 2.8cm Note: visible movement of lead towards front of bullet.
After 30 - 2.8cm
After 35 - 2.8cm
After 40 - 2.8cm Note: lead actually coming out of top of hollow point.
After 45 - 2.8cm Note: copper tip completely deformed.
After 50 - 2.8cm

Conclusions:
The bullet never actually sank into the casing. Around 25 times the lead started to creep towards the opening of the bullet. By the 45th chambering the copper tip was deformed, being pushed inward and making the circle smaller.

Chambering a bullet upwards of twenty times may affect integrity of the bullet with possible adverse affect to bullet expansion.

My personal observations: I would be confident that I would shoot the round in normal training well before the bullet may become compromised.
So, I see no real reason to mark casings or rotate them through the magazine. There is no practical reason to do so from what I have found.

Furthermore, I don't even see the above result of lead creep being a problem as I don't use the slide stop to release the slide, but I ride the slide with my hand and ease the cartridge into the chamber. The round is always properly seated and I don't get wear and tear, or more importantly deformation of the opening of the hollow point.

If you are skeptical of my test I urge you to take one of your carry rounds and try the test for yourself. I am more than confident that once you do you'll see that marking casings and moving cartridges is unnecessary.
 

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jccls said:
Is it just mine, or do other glocks leave a noteworthy scratch on the edge of the shell when it is ejected? (I usually see it on the edge that meets the lead.)
If you eject the cartridge quickly, then yes it is completely normal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi Ram,

I liked your test, very well done.
So, I guess the easiest thing to do is just shoot the round in the chamber, and maybe every few months shoot the rounds in the mag just to have fresh ammo ready to go!

I was curious because a friend of mine gave me some home grown hollow points and I wasn't sure how long to let them "age"!

Personally, I like Hydrashok in my 9mm and 40 cal.
Dont think it much matters in 44 mag, and I like semiwadcutters in 45. Big hole, big push, big problems!
 

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Thanks DrGlock.

You could shoot out the round in the chamber, but I think it is unnecessary. Same for the rounds in your magazine. However, like Adam5 said, it is a good idea to practice with your carry ammo from time to time.

Your ammo is not going to go bad per se. So long as moisture doesn't get inside the cartridge they'll be fine.

Ever since I got my Glock 19 my 23 has been lonely in the safe. I've had the same carry rounds (Hornady TAP) in them since about November of last year. I have every confidence that they will go bang when pin meets primer.

You may not want to use those rounds that your friend gave you, at least in so far as carry loads. I am not trying to impugn your friend's reloading capabilities, but I would be cautious about reloads that I did not have direct control over. A self defense situation would be a terrible time to find out that one of the rounds was "hot" and force your weapon to have a catastrophic failure.

I'm a fan of Federal HST myself.
 

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Another Issue

The recent warning about bullets being pushed back into the cases and "compressing" the gunpowder was supposedly based on actual tests from Glock and Sig, neither of whom make ammunition, so it's hard to see where the gun companies would falsify the data just to encourage you to keep fresh ammo in your pistol.

Personally, I used to use very expensive rounds for defense that I would keep a long time, and I was often chambering and ejecting them for various reasons. None of my bullets were pushed back, but some of the rims got a little dinged up from being hit with the extractor so many times.

Here's a potential issue: If the brass rim of your "in the pipe" cartridge gets deformed from too many contacts with the extractor, the shell case won't "headspace" in the chamber properly. It might go 99% of the way in, and then stop. Many guns will fire a round that is mostly, but not completely, chambered. If the weapon fires "out of battery" then you're likely to have the web area of the case blow out, sending a bunch of hot gas and metal fragments up through the ejection port, possibly disassembling your weapon for you!
 

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I saw over on GlockTalk/Reloading that for 9mm Luger a setback of 0.030 just about doubled the pressure. And that was from, I think, the Speer reloading manual. Might have been Hornady.

Personaly I can 'waste' a lot of rounds before I even come close to health insurance deductables. I unload a chambered round out the barrel.
 

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Rammstein said:
You may not want to use those rounds that your friend gave you, at least in so far as carry loads. I am not trying to impugn your friend's reloading capabilities, but I would be cautious about reloads that I did not have direct control over. A self defense situation would be a terrible time to find out that one of the rounds was "hot" and force your weapon to have a catastrophic failure.
Another reason not carry reloads is not having the ability to duplicate the load for testing. If I am involved in a self defense shoot, and ballistics tests are run on my gun and ammo, I want the testing to be done with the exact same load that I carry. It's easy to do that with off the shelf factory ammo, but not so easy with handloaded rounds.
 

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Adam5 said:
Rammstein said:
You may not want to use those rounds that your friend gave you, at least in so far as carry loads. I am not trying to impugn your friend's reloading capabilities, but I would be cautious about reloads that I did not have direct control over. A self defense situation would be a terrible time to find out that one of the rounds was "hot" and force your weapon to have a catastrophic failure.
Another reason not carry reloads is not having the ability to duplicate the load for testing. If I am involved in a self defense shoot, and ballistics tests are run on my gun and ammo, I want the testing to be done with the exact same load that I carry. It's easy to do that with off the shelf factory ammo, but not so easy with handloaded rounds.
Another reason is that a DA will try to say that you carried handloads that were loaded with the expressed, premediated, intent to kill someone or maim them. I know that factory loads do the same thing but it is the INTENT that a DA will try to paint in the minds of the jurors.
 

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Doc Holliday said:
Another reason is that a DA will try to say that you carried handloads that were loaded with the expressed, premediated, intent to kill someone or maim them. I know that factory loads do the same thing but it is the INTENT that a DA will try to paint in the minds of the jurors.
"Well, sir, I sure was not carrying it for mere exhibition purposes!"
 

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"And I would be carrying right now if it was not for the stupid public gathering law. Now what is you next question, Mr. Prosecutor?"

:D
 

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Doc Holliday said:
Another reason is that a DA will try to say that you carried handloads that were loaded with the expressed, premediated, intent to kill someone or maim them. I know that factory loads do the same thing but it is the INTENT that a DA will try to paint in the minds of the jurors.
I speculate that this is urban legend.
 

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I would be more concerned with magazine (clip for you non-military types) memory. Currently I only have one mag for my DP51 and every night after I take it off, I remove 5-7 rounds out of the mag. This leaves me with enough ammo should I need it, and helps reduce the rate at which the magazine spring weakens.

Weakened, or substandard springs, will cause feeding problems, but is usually only a problem on duty weapons.

When I was in the Marines, we would only load 28, ( 29 if you were feeling sporty) rounds into our M-16 magazines, mostly though to prevent double feeds. Granted we had those wonderful Circle K mags, and as an Range NCO, I probably marked 4 out of 10 of those as bad.
 

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Re: Another Issue

gunsmoker said:
The recent warning about bullets being pushed back into the cases and "compressing" the gunpowder was supposedly based on actual tests from Glock and Sig, neither of whom make ammunition, so it's hard to see where the gun companies would falsify the data just to encourage you to keep fresh ammo in your pistol.
True, I don't think this is some conspiracy to make people buy more ammo. But like I said, if you believe in the whole bullet set back thing all you need is your pistol, a cartridge, and a ruler. See for yourself.

Personally, I used to use very expensive rounds for defense that I would keep a long time, and I was often chambering and ejecting them for various reasons. None of my bullets were pushed back, but some of the rims got a little dinged up from being hit with the extractor so many times.

Here's a potential issue: If the brass rim of your "in the pipe" cartridge gets deformed from too many contacts with the extractor, the shell case won't "headspace" in the chamber properly. It might go 99% of the way in, and then stop. Many guns will fire a round that is mostly, but not completely, chambered. If the weapon fires "out of battery" then you're likely to have the web area of the case blow out, sending a bunch of hot gas and metal fragments up through the ejection port, possibly disassembling your weapon for you!
That's why I don't rack the slide very fast, rather I just pull the round out of the chamber slowly. I see no deformation of the round in any way by doing this, so the whole setback/broken rim is really a non-issue to me.
 

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Doc Holliday said:
Another reason is that a DA will try to say that you carried handloads that were loaded with the expressed, premediated, intent to kill someone or maim them. I know that factory loads do the same thing but it is the INTENT that a DA will try to paint in the minds of the jurors.
I reject most arguments of "the DA will get me because of what is in my gun." You are either justified in shooting or you are not.

This is just something that gun owners like to use to scare other gun owners into conformity.

"It doesn't matter if he was running at you with two machettes saying 'I'm going to kill you!'....more importantly, did you shoot him with a 3.5# connector?" (or substitute any other inane comment about what is inside your weapon)
 

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slabertooch said:
I would be more concerned with magazine (clip for you non-military types) memory. Currently I only have one mag for my DP51 and every night after I take it off, I remove 5-7 rounds out of the mag. This leaves me with enough ammo should I need it, and helps reduce the rate at which the magazine spring weakens.

Weakened, or substandard springs, will cause feeding problems, but is usually only a problem on duty weapons.

When I was in the Marines, we would only load 28, ( 29 if you were feeling sporty) rounds into our M-16 magazines, mostly though to prevent double feeds. Granted we had those wonderful Circle K mags, and as an Range NCO, I probably marked 4 out of 10 of those as bad.
Pushing a spring beyond its yield point causes the spring to deform. The spring in your magazine was designed to hold X number of rounds; therefore putting X number or rounds in your magazine and keeping them there does no harm to the spring. Now if you were to force X+1 rounds (and if it actually fit) then the spring would be forced beyond its structural limit and cause it to deform.

Now having said all the above it is important to note that exercising the spring within its normal dimensions is not going to create a significant amount of creep*, so don't be too worried about using the magazine too many times. But remember, having the magazine spring compressed within its structural limits does not do harm.

Any spring that is at a normal temperature (read: not in a furnace) unless there is too much stress placed on it.

Hooke's Law of Elasticity which applies to linear-elastic materials (like springs) basically says that a spring will deform when pushed past its elastic limit.

Since the spring in your magazine is most likely steal it will obey Hooke's Law.

So don't worry about loading (and keeping it loaded) your magazine to its intended capacity.
 

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I messed up the quote part:

"I speculate that this is urban legend"

Nope, read about it in one of Massad Ayoob's columns in Combat Handguns earlier this year. He talked about being an expert witness during a case in which handloads were used. His advice was to stick to factory loads.
 

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Doc Holliday said:
Nope, read about it in one of Massad Ayoob's columns in Combat Handguns earlier this year. He talked about being an expert witness during a case in which handloads were used. His advice was to stick to factory loads.
I thought Massad Ayoob has been one of the ones challenged to bring up a real case where this made a difference.

http://www.john-ross.net/hldefense.htm
 
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