[FrontSight]

IPHONES (Apple)

During his campaign, Trump suggested that his administration could potentially get Apple to build their computers and devices in the U.S. instead of other countries. Nikkei Asian Review reported last month that Apple assembler Foxconn has actually been studying the possibility of moving iPhone production to the U.S. But a source told Nikkei that the cost of an iPhone would "more than double" if that were to happen. An evaluation by Marketplace looked into the hypothetical cost of an American-made iPhone, and came up with a similar estimate. If all the components were made in the U.S., they suggest, that could push the cost up to $600, which would mean the phone could retail for as much as $2000.According to a different analysis published in the MIT Technology Review, if iPhone assembly were done in the U.S. but the components were still sourced globally, the cost of making phones (currently estimated at about $230) would rise about 5%. However, if the components were made in the U.S. (with raw materials bought on the global market), that would add an additional $30 or $40 to the cost of making the device, an increase that would then be reflected in retail markups.Dan Panzica, chief analyst at IHS Markit Technology's Outsourced Manufacturing Intelligence Service, suggests these estimates all overlook a bigger problem.

The info contained in this quote is factual until the author makes a statement that is in conflict with other facts he stated.

The MSRP on an IPhone is somewhere around $675.00, It costs $230.00 to make= 293% markup. If the "price doubles" when made in the USA that would be $460.00 x 293%= $1,347.80 not the $2,000.00 he stated. The reason Apple makes these overseas is that markup, whereas made in the USA it would only earn 47% markup.

When the prototype IPhone was in Steve Jobs hands, the screen broke, he contacted FoxConn at 12 am Taiwan time about using Gorilla Glass by Owens Corning for the screen. At 2:30 am Foxconn management woke prototype workers in their Foxconn owned apartments (on the company campus) to come in to work up a phone using the Gorilla Glass. Here is where I ask the question, Could those employees have refused? And what would happen to them if they did?

P.S. Don't confuse cheap goods as a great deal without considering the human and environmental impact included in that cheap price.

 

[FrontSight]

JEANS

Panzica suggests that clothing costs could increase even more than that of electronics if they were manufactured in the U.S. For a device like the iPhone, he says, the majority of the cost is in the materials that go into it. But materials for shirts and pants are cheap - the labor makes up a higher portion of the cost of production.That's why apparel companies have shipped manufacturing overseas, he says."If you look at labor rates around some of the really cheap areas, Vietnam is like $2.50, and Bangladesh is like $1.80 an hour," he says. By comparison, IHS' analysts calculate the labor rate in the U.S. at $25-$30 per hour (a number that takes into account costs beyond an employee's wages). "So even if there's an hour worth of labor in a blouse or a men's shirt, now you're talking about a $25 buck difference per piece," he says of the manufacturing cost.That logic is reflected in "Made in the USA" lines sold by various U.S. clothing companies.Levi's "Original fit selvedge jeans" cost around $128. But the selvedge jeans of the same fit from the company's "Made in the USA" collection, which uses premium denim from Cone Mills of North Carolina, were listed online for $348. (As of writing they're on sale for $104.90, however.)JCrew's Wallace Barnes raw indigo selvedge jean, which is constructed in the U.S. using denim from Japan's Nihon Menu mill, are listed at $248. Other raw selvedge pairs for men cost $175.

$300.00 Jeans, Pfft!!

Here is a selection made in the USA for $31.99

http://www.texasjeans.com/category.cfm?parent=men

That exorbitant price is for some millennial to brag about.

P.S. and for you Tebow fans, Texas jeans also sells Jhorts

 

[FrontSight]

SNEAKERS

A large percentage of footwear is made in Asian countries included in the TPP, and about 97 to 99% of sports footwear that's sold in the U.S. is made in other countries, according to the pro-trade group Footwear Distributors and Retailers of America.The TPP would have reduced or eliminated tariffs for shoes imported from Vietnam and other countries, which might have reduced the overall cost of sneakers in the U.S. Companies like Adidas and Nike, which has 26 footwear factories in Vietnam, supported the trade partnership.New Balance, however, opposed the deal. On its website, the company boasts that it makes or assembles 4 million pairs of athletic footwear per year in the USA. New Balance labels its domestically made pairs for consumers, which also makes apparent the difference in price between those shoes and the ones made offshore.New Balance shoes range in price from $65 to $399, but the American-made pairs start at $165 and get as expensive as $399. (The most expensive pair on the New Balance website is indeed made in the U.S.) That means none of the lowest-priced pairs are manufactured domestically.A similar contrast is also visible in Reebok's shoes. The company makes a Postal Express line, which is made in the U.S. and designed specifically to meet the needs of postal workers. But the shoes range from $167-$230, whereas Reebok's regular athletic footwear costs between $80 and $165.

SOM Footwear in Colorado sells USA made sneakers for $134.00 which is less that some athlete branded, third world made, Nike, that some folks stand in line for.

http://www.somfootwear.com/collections/featured-products

 

[FrontSight]

If the cost of American production is so expensive, why are Asian and European automakers building cars here now?

There are flaws in the logic of the article.

Yes definite flaws in the jeans info. Selvedge jeans is a marketing method, selvedge denim is made on shuttle looms, and the only US company that still uses these looms is in North Carolina. Textiles now are made on projectile looms like a Sulzer which weave the werf (across thread) with an individual thread leaving an cloth edge that can fray, whereas shuttle looms pull the thread back and forth making the cloth edges (selvedge) closed.

Turn your jeans inside out and look at the seams along the length of the legs, see how the denim is overlapped, then folded and then double stitched? Selvedge jeans are made from the edge of the doff (cloth) and that selvedge is not folded and usually shows a colored thread that is used in the warp. If you are a hip, metrosexual, millennial and roll your jeans cuffs, those colored threads show and that makes you hip while in the company of other pajama boys. Now a company like Texas Jeans make jeans the modern way, using American made denim produced on projectile looms.

I found sources for American made jeans on my Google search within seconds. So the author compared the cost of selvedge jeans to regular jeans because it "FIT HIS NARRATIVE!!!!"

And that makes the accuracy of the whole article that he wrote suspect!

 

[FrontSight]

I don't know the brands so I don't know the quality, but sometimes quality and how long It will last has a big impact on price as well as supply and demand. Price isn't a one step idea. It can be more complex than that. Most goods of similar supply and demand and quality will go up when made here, labor cost, regulations, taxes.

This is also just my opinion, but the more luxury you get and further away from a base model of a good shoe, or other item, I feel as the price gets really high, you get diminishing returns on the quality and usefulness of that product for the amount you paid. This is not always the case, but sometimes that is.

There is also name recognition, and Goodwill, and those things factor in the price as well.

Well I know the quality of Red Wings, as I have been wearing a pair of American made Red Wing steel toes for 6 years every day at work (I work at a desk so they don't get a lot of wear). I spent about $60.00 more for the US made than their Chinese made boots. The difference in form, fit, and function is noticeable.

I told my wife not to buy any more Fruit of the Loom or Hanes t-shirts for me, I'll only wear Gildan. The foreign made F o L and Hanes are thin and too short , they won't stay tucked in and only last thru 52 washings. I am still wearing Gildans that I bought on sale at Gander Mtn 3 years ago. Gildan is located in North Carolina.

 

[FrontSight]

Built is different than components. Where are the components made? Where is the car "built?"

He didn't mention cars in his article. Because of their shipping costs and weight. Makes sense to put together foreign components into a car here in America. Shipping costs.

EJR, there are foreign owned Tier 2 suppliers that manufacture for Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW located all across the South. Toyota has an engine casting plant in Huntsville AL, Air bag expanders are made in LaGrange, GA and Auburn, AL, Koyo has a bearing plant that makes rollers for valve lifters in Cairo, GA, Stanadyne has a plant in Tallahassee FL that makes valve train components.

These auto companies employ "Just in Time" supply chain management that requires their Tier 2 suppliers to be responsive to their needs. True story that I was involved in - Wanna make a slight change to the layout of the lifter roller shipping tube that is placed in the assembly robot? The supplier that is located 200 miles away can do that, but the supplier that has 3,000,000 units steaming across the Pacific can't. Shipping costs are a small fraction of costs but is far outweighed by other factors.

 

[FrontSight]

Logic and facts? Seriously, you think they'll have any impact?

Not really, but here are some more facts for the OP.

http://www.autotrader.com/car-tips/new-car-delivery-or-destination-charges-explained-213280

Freight, delivery or destination charges ensure that the buyer pays equally to cover the cost of delivering a vehicle to a dealership, regardless of whether the dealership is nearby or far away from the vehicle assembly plant. For example, a Kia Optima buyer in Seattle is not required to pay more for the vehicle than a buyer in Atlanta, who's thousands of miles closer to the West Point, Ga. plant where the Optima is built.

Instead, Kia passes the cost on to buyers with a delivery charge of $800, regardless of where the seller is located. The fee is not included in the MSRP. Instead, it's typically listed as one of the last items on the window sticker, right above the total price.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/foreign-cars-made-in-america-where-does-the-money-go.html

Foreign Carmakers Buy American
Foreign automobile makers with U.S. manufacturing operations also buy a lot of their parts and components here, to say nothing of their supplies and office and manufacturing equipment.

It makes sense to do so, they say, because shipping costs, taxes and duties often make it more expensive to ship parts and supplies from the home country than to source them here, where the plants and office facilities are located.

Take Toyota and Honda as the examples again: The two companies reported that in 2014, they collectively spent $68.5 billion in the U.S. on parts, equipment and supplies. Honda had the larger share at $35.6 billion, with Toyota reporting $32.9 billion in purchases.

While some of the suppliers are U.S. arms of overseas companies and sent some of that $68.5 billion home as profit, most of the money remained in circulation in the form of things like wages, raw materials purchases by the suppliers, domestic transportation costs and even the U.S. taxes those suppliers paid, the companies said. Those suppliers include advertising firms and market researchers.

 

[FrontSight]

Along the topic of made in USA,

I recently bought a Stormy Kromer Waxed Cotton Cap for $44.95, it was made in Ironwood, MI. Seems like a lot right? Not so fast, how about a lifetime warranty including normal wear and tear, or the no charge insurance against loss, yes, they will supply a new cap if you lose yours. And wouldn't you know it, a 7-3/4" size is truly 7-3/4", no foreign made fitted hat has ever felt like it fit my big head correctly until I bought this American made hat.

USA!!!

 

[FrontSight]

phaed and EJR,

What do you see as the role of government, Local, County, State and Federal? Help me understand that you have posted in this thread. Please don't answer with what these governments shouldn't provide but only what services you believe they should provide to their citizens. If you don't believe in any governance then say so.

 

[FrontSight]

Are you implying anarchy? If that is so, then what level of anarchy, total or limited anarchy?

 

[FrontSight]

So y'all are cool with stuff like, say, child sex trafficking? Because there should be no laws at all and what not.

I don't think so because that would be an infringement on the rights of the child. Thus that would go against Libertarian principles. JMHO

 

[FrontSight]

i'm a voluntaryist; that is to say all interactions with me need be consensual. subsequently, that worldview also makes me an anarchist.

there's no such thing as "limited anarchy". a man is either free, or he isn't. he either owns himself, or is a slave.

So you aren't a Libertarian?

 

[FrontSight]

libertarian is a pretty loose term. some definitions include anarchists, some just minarchists. i've described my worldview as accurately as is possible. if someone views me as a libertarian or not isn't really important to me.

Understood, thanks for the explanation, I can now try to understand your posts.

What about you EJR, do you associate as a Libertarian?

 

[FrontSight]

Do either of you believe that you owe a debt to your fellow citizens for your current state of existence, I.E. as in the "social contract"?

 

[FrontSight]

no. i didn't sign any such contract.

EJR, What say you? Do you owe a debt to your fellow citizens for your state of existence? Phaed concisely answered my question, will you?

 

[FrontSight]

So that I may understand your beliefs system, Phaed and EJR, I'll try to summarize, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

All levels of government are wrong, and shouldn't exist. Therefore taxes, tariffs, fees, tolls, etc., initiated by government, are wrong.

The individual is the highest form of governance, he controls his body, surroundings, and interactions with others, among other things. He does not recognize any form of governance other that his own.

The Non Aggression Principle (NAP) allows for force to respond to force initiated towards the non-consenting individual.

Unfettered capitalism is to be recognized as the economic engine.

There are no moral, ethical, and societal rules to adhere to except what the individual chooses to recognize and act on.

The individual owes no debt of gratitude to his fellow humans, past and present, for their contribution to his current state of existence.

I'm sure there are more but those are what I understand from reading your posts in this thread

 

[FrontSight]

In addition to what EJR said, I would also add that the residency argument is invalid. Simply being born somewhere or living somewhere does not imply consent to a certain government. In fact, there is no such thing as implicit consent to libertarians/anarchists. Like EJR said, there has to be a reasonable way to opt out of the system. Whether or not a "government" is legitimate depends on how they got their power in the first place and whether or not the "governed" consent (meaning each individual explicitly consents). If the government got their power by the use of force vs voluntary association then the government is not legitimate.

Hi Drew! Do you also concur with my understanding of their beliefs system?

 

[FrontSight]

For the most part. I don't "recognize" government in the sense of it being legitimate, but in the same way you "recognize" a mafia who threatens to kill you if you don't pay up. You may cooperate rather than fight back, but that doesn't imply consent.

Thank you Drew, for your response and explanation.

 

[FrontSight]

If you see someone murdering your neighbor there is no doubt, you are initiating force.

You might want to look at the above statement. I believe you mis-spoke

 

[FrontSight]

Gentlemen,

I am an United States of America Citizen, and I owe a debt of gratitude to my fellow Citizens, past and present, for giving their sacrifice of coin, sweat, and blood to create the infrastructure that I use daily.

As a US Army veteran, I owe thanks to those who have served our nation's military, past and present, I reserve my most humble gratitude for those who gave their last full measure.

I owe thanks to those that keep and have kept our nation's civil order by enforcing the Rule of Law, I do not take your service for granted.

I owe sincere thanks for my ancestors who volunteered and served in the Virginia Line in 1776, and to those ancestors from then to present day who allowed my God and Savior to create me in 1956.

I owe thanks to all the people, good, and evil that I have crossed paths with these last 61 years. You have contributed to the person I am today.

I owe thanks to our Society, which has allowed me to thrive, and to those that prospered under it's umbrella for their innovation, diligence, and perseverance at creating a better nation and world.

To those gentlemen who espouse anarchy and have said that I/we won't allow them to “opt outâ€, you don't need our permission. You have publicly stated that you owe no debt to your fellow Citizen. You can declare yourself a “Sovereign Citizen†, stop paying taxes, following our Laws, and while you are at it, please stop using the infrastructure that our Society has paid for. Or you can renounce your Citizenship and leave by following these instructions:

http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/relinquishing-citizenship/renunciating-your-us-passport/five-steps-to-renunciating-your-us-passport/

https://libertarianmoney.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/how-to-renounce-us-citizenship-in-3-steps/

Your talk is cheap, just do it, I'll even make a monetary contribution to a GoFundMe to help you start the process, payable to an immigration attorney located the the nation of your choosing.