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Seasteading Aficionado
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is Economics. Ship those manufacturing jobs to 3rd world countries. Keep prices low.

It is not good for Americans to have to pay high prices for the goods we want. Its even worse to put Tariffs on them.

Doubling, Tripling Prices of the goods we want? And people say paying a flat consumption tax is bad? LOL

If you do not understand how this works, feel free to ask questions and I will try to explain how this works.

Business Insider had this on their page.

Made in USA often comes with a high price
In his first address after his victory speech â€" a two-and-a-half minute YouTube video posted Nov. 21 â€" President-elect Donald Trump dove right into the issue of trade.On his first day in office, Trump said, he plans to “issue a notification of intent to withdraw from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a disaster for our country.â€Free trade teals like the TPP and North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) played a prominent role in Trump’s campaign message. Though the TPP is not yet in effect, Trump has consistently blamed NAFTA and other trade deals for shipping too many jobs overseas and hurting the U.S. economy.Although there is broad support for increasing U.S. manufacturing power overall, goods made in the U.S. are inevitably more expensive than those created in countries where labor is cheaper, such as China, Vietnam, and Mexico.
IPHONES (Apple)

During his campaign, Trump suggested that his administration could potentially get Apple to build their computers and devices in the U.S. instead of other countries. Nikkei Asian Review reported last month that Apple assembler Foxconn has actually been studying the possibility of moving iPhone production to the U.S. But a source told Nikkei that the cost of an iPhone would "more than double" if that were to happen. An evaluation by Marketplace looked into the hypothetical cost of an American-made iPhone, and came up with a similar estimate. If all the components were made in the U.S., they suggest, that could push the cost up to $600, which would mean the phone could retail for as much as $2000.According to a different analysis published in the MIT Technology Review, if iPhone assembly were done in the U.S. but the components were still sourced globally, the cost of making phones (currently estimated at about $230) would rise about 5%. However, if the components were made in the U.S. (with raw materials bought on the global market), that would add an additional $30 or $40 to the cost of making the device, an increase that would then be reflected in retail markups.Dan Panzica, chief analyst at IHS Markit Technology's Outsourced Manufacturing Intelligence Service, suggests these estimates all overlook a bigger problem.
JEANS

Panzica suggests that clothing costs could increase even more than that of electronics if they were manufactured in the U.S. For a device like the iPhone, he says, the majority of the cost is in the materials that go into it. But materials for shirts and pants are cheap - the labor makes up a higher portion of the cost of production.That's why apparel companies have shipped manufacturing overseas, he says."If you look at labor rates around some of the really cheap areas, Vietnam is like $2.50, and Bangladesh is like $1.80 an hour," he says. By comparison, IHS' analysts calculate the labor rate in the U.S. at $25-$30 per hour (a number that takes into account costs beyond an employee's wages). "So even if there's an hour worth of labor in a blouse or a men's shirt, now you're talking about a $25 buck difference per piece," he says of the manufacturing cost.That logic is reflected in "Made in the USA" lines sold by various U.S. clothing companies.Levi's "Original fit selvedge jeans" cost around $128. But the selvedge jeans of the same fit from the company's "Made in the USA" collection, which uses premium denim from Cone Mills of North Carolina, were listed online for $348. (As of writing they're on sale for $104.90, however.)JCrew's Wallace Barnes raw indigo selvedge jean, which is constructed in the U.S. using denim from Japan's Nihon Menu mill, are listed at $248. Other raw selvedge pairs for men cost $175.
SNEAKERS

A large percentage of footwear is made in Asian countries included in the TPP, and about 97 to 99% of sports footwear that's sold in the U.S. is made in other countries, according to the pro-trade group Footwear Distributors and Retailers of America.The TPP would have reduced or eliminated tariffs for shoes imported from Vietnam and other countries, which might have reduced the overall cost of sneakers in the U.S. Companies like Adidas and Nike, which has 26 footwear factories in Vietnam, supported the trade partnership.New Balance, however, opposed the deal. On its website, the company boasts that it makes or assembles 4 million pairs of athletic footwear per year in the USA. New Balance labels its domestically made pairs for consumers, which also makes apparent the difference in price between those shoes and the ones made offshore.New Balance shoes range in price from $65 to $399, but the American-made pairs start at $165 and get as expensive as $399. (The most expensive pair on the New Balance website is indeed made in the U.S.) That means none of the lowest-priced pairs are manufactured domestically.A similar contrast is also visible in Reebok's shoes. The company makes a Postal Express line, which is made in the U.S. and designed specifically to meet the needs of postal workers. But the shoes range from $167-$230, whereas Reebok's regular athletic footwear costs between $80 and $165.
Something to think about before we make Crony Deals to keep jobs in America that should have never existed here with the free market in the first place. Lower prices, ship manufacturing to poor 3rd world countries.

Americans LOVE our low priced goods, just look at Wal-Mart, its a perfect example of Americans choosing low-cost goods.
 

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I don't think this is accurate. I only buy red wing boots made in America, the pair I get cost $219 a similar pair made in Asia run about 160. Where is the crazy price difference. Look at thorogood boots they are Union made and only run 180ish
 

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I don't think this is accurate. I only buy red wing boots made in America, the pair I get cost $219 a similar pair made in Asia run about 160. Where is the crazy price difference. Look at thorogood boots they are Union made and only run 180ish
Not to mention both companies cut the leather here, shipp it out of the country to be tanned and dyed due to EPA rules, and then bring it back in for assembly. The Thorogood VP told me that adds $30 to $50 to each pair of boots
 

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The estimates given in this article ate accurate with CURRENT regulations and trends. American goods are higher priced due to higher saleries, safety regulations, environmental regulations, taxes, and a host of other things. Not to mention the lack of sales in comparison to the low cost imported junk.

Now, let's think about this. What if taxes were significantly lower? What if there were no unions? What if Asian made products cost just as much as American ones due to tariffs? What if American companies sold the bulk of products over imports?

See, simple economics means looking at the whole picture. If American companies sell more volume they can charge less, if American companies have less tax and fewer moronic regulations they can charge less.

It's really simple stuff. One thing these "analysts" fail to grasp is that trump is going to make these companies want to produce in the us, he's not going to force them. He's going to create an environment friendly to American production. Costs won't go up because profits will increase on their own.

Besides, wanting cheap crap is a pretty terrible reason to cause an unemployment epidemic, no? Be an American, buy American, and support your own country.

Also, while I'm here let me give an example. This is proof that businesses don't move production to offer better prices, they do it to improve profit.

Peavey amplifier company. They have made their amps in the USA forever, recently they moved all production to china however. Now, obviously their production costs are lower, right? What did it do to their retail price? NOTHING. The model 6505 cost $899 when made in the USA, now made in china it costs $899.
 

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IPHONES (Apple)

During his campaign, Trump suggested that his administration could potentially get Apple to build their computers and devices in the U.S. instead of other countries. Nikkei Asian Review reported last month that Apple assembler Foxconn has actually been studying the possibility of moving iPhone production to the U.S. But a source told Nikkei that the cost of an iPhone would "more than double" if that were to happen. An evaluation by Marketplace looked into the hypothetical cost of an American-made iPhone, and came up with a similar estimate. If all the components were made in the U.S., they suggest, that could push the cost up to $600, which would mean the phone could retail for as much as $2000.According to a different analysis published in the MIT Technology Review, if iPhone assembly were done in the U.S. but the components were still sourced globally, the cost of making phones (currently estimated at about $230) would rise about 5%. However, if the components were made in the U.S. (with raw materials bought on the global market), that would add an additional $30 or $40 to the cost of making the device, an increase that would then be reflected in retail markups.Dan Panzica, chief analyst at IHS Markit Technology's Outsourced Manufacturing Intelligence Service, suggests these estimates all overlook a bigger problem.
The info contained in this quote is factual until the author makes a statement that is in conflict with other facts he stated.

The MSRP on an IPhone is somewhere around $675.00, It costs $230.00 to make= 293% markup. If the "price doubles" when made in the USA that would be $460.00 x 293%= $1,347.80 not the $2,000.00 he stated. The reason Apple makes these overseas is that markup, whereas made in the USA it would only earn 47% markup.

When the prototype IPhone was in Steve Jobs hands, the screen broke, he contacted FoxConn at 12 am Taiwan time about using Gorilla Glass by Owens Corning for the screen. At 2:30 am Foxconn management woke prototype workers in their Foxconn owned apartments (on the company campus) to come in to work up a phone using the Gorilla Glass. Here is where I ask the question, Could those employees have refused? And what would happen to them if they did?

P.S. Don't confuse cheap goods as a great deal without considering the human and environmental impact included in that cheap price.
 

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JEANS

Panzica suggests that clothing costs could increase even more than that of electronics if they were manufactured in the U.S. For a device like the iPhone, he says, the majority of the cost is in the materials that go into it. But materials for shirts and pants are cheap - the labor makes up a higher portion of the cost of production.That's why apparel companies have shipped manufacturing overseas, he says."If you look at labor rates around some of the really cheap areas, Vietnam is like $2.50, and Bangladesh is like $1.80 an hour," he says. By comparison, IHS' analysts calculate the labor rate in the U.S. at $25-$30 per hour (a number that takes into account costs beyond an employee's wages). "So even if there's an hour worth of labor in a blouse or a men's shirt, now you're talking about a $25 buck difference per piece," he says of the manufacturing cost.That logic is reflected in "Made in the USA" lines sold by various U.S. clothing companies.Levi's "Original fit selvedge jeans" cost around $128. But the selvedge jeans of the same fit from the company's "Made in the USA" collection, which uses premium denim from Cone Mills of North Carolina, were listed online for $348. (As of writing they're on sale for $104.90, however.)JCrew's Wallace Barnes raw indigo selvedge jean, which is constructed in the U.S. using denim from Japan's Nihon Menu mill, are listed at $248. Other raw selvedge pairs for men cost $175.
$300.00 Jeans, Pfft!!

Here is a selection made in the USA for $31.99

http://www.texasjeans.com/category.cfm?parent=men

That exorbitant price is for some millennial to brag about.

P.S. and for you Tebow fans, Texas jeans also sells Jhorts
 

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SNEAKERS

A large percentage of footwear is made in Asian countries included in the TPP, and about 97 to 99% of sports footwear that's sold in the U.S. is made in other countries, according to the pro-trade group Footwear Distributors and Retailers of America.The TPP would have reduced or eliminated tariffs for shoes imported from Vietnam and other countries, which might have reduced the overall cost of sneakers in the U.S. Companies like Adidas and Nike, which has 26 footwear factories in Vietnam, supported the trade partnership.New Balance, however, opposed the deal. On its website, the company boasts that it makes or assembles 4 million pairs of athletic footwear per year in the USA. New Balance labels its domestically made pairs for consumers, which also makes apparent the difference in price between those shoes and the ones made offshore.New Balance shoes range in price from $65 to $399, but the American-made pairs start at $165 and get as expensive as $399. (The most expensive pair on the New Balance website is indeed made in the U.S.) That means none of the lowest-priced pairs are manufactured domestically.A similar contrast is also visible in Reebok's shoes. The company makes a Postal Express line, which is made in the U.S. and designed specifically to meet the needs of postal workers. But the shoes range from $167-$230, whereas Reebok's regular athletic footwear costs between $80 and $165.
SOM Footwear in Colorado sells USA made sneakers for $134.00 which is less that some athlete branded, third world made, Nike, that some folks stand in line for.

http://www.somfootwear.com/collections/featured-products
 

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First of all, designer clothes are expensive because designers are full of themselves. Secondly, markets adapt. If the cost saving method of overseas labor is out, then companies will either die off or find another way. And quite frankly a small increase in price isn't a big deal for the sake of American made.
 

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American
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First of all, designer clothes are expensive because designers are full of themselves. Secondly, markets adapt. If the cost saving method of overseas labor is out, then companies will either die off or find another way. And quite frankly a small increase in price isn't a big deal for the sake of American made.
Also, when it's American made that means that the cost of the item STAYS here to be circulated back into OUR economy.
 

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Atlanta Overwatch
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If the cost of American production is so expensive, why are Asian and European automakers building cars here now?

There are flaws in the logic of the article.
 

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If the cost of American production is so expensive, why are Asian and European automakers building cars here now?

There are flaws in the logic of the article.
Yes definite flaws in the jeans info. Selvedge jeans is a marketing method, selvedge denim is made on shuttle looms, and the only US company that still uses these looms is in North Carolina. Textiles now are made on projectile looms like a Sulzer which weave the werf (across thread) with an individual thread leaving an cloth edge that can fray, whereas shuttle looms pull the thread back and forth making the cloth edges (selvedge) closed.

Turn your jeans inside out and look at the seams along the length of the legs, see how the denim is overlapped, then folded and then double stitched? Selvedge jeans are made from the edge of the doff (cloth) and that selvedge is not folded and usually shows a colored thread that is used in the warp. If you are a hip, metrosexual, millennial and roll your jeans cuffs, those colored threads show and that makes you hip while in the company of other pajama boys. Now a company like Texas Jeans make jeans the modern way, using American made denim produced on projectile looms.

I found sources for American made jeans on my Google search within seconds. So the author compared the cost of selvedge jeans to regular jeans because it "FIT HIS NARRATIVE!!!!"

And that makes the accuracy of the whole article that he wrote suspect!
 

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If the cost of American production is so expensive, why are Asian and European automakers building cars here now?

There are flaws in the logic of the article.
I couldn't agree more. Try finding a Japanese vehicle for sale in USA that was actually manufactured in Japan. Yes, there are a couple, but very few. Even production costs in China are getting to the point that it's as expensive to produce there as it is here.

Some of the cheapest cars available to Americans are built here in Georgia...and Tennessee and Texas. Why? The unions aren't in control...plain and simple.

I found sources for American made jeans on my Google search within seconds. So the author compared the cost of selvedge jeans to regular jeans because it "FIT HIS NARRATIVE!!!!"

And that makes the accuracy of the whole article that he wrote suspect!
And this applies to about 98% of ANY "newz" articles that are posted today. Most are full of spurious facts/numbers and are reported in a way to advance THEIR agenda. What's worse is when you read something that you think might be "BS", it can be very difficult to find the ACTUAL information.

As an example: I saw a shared article not too long ago with the headline "ALL OF MCDONALD'S IN USA GOING TO KIOSK ORDERING". So, I read the article. Long story short, it attributed this to the min wage "war". It asserted that McD's had made an announcement that in light of high costs of labor, all of the restaurants in the US would be going to automated ordering. The article left you thinking that it was going to happen YESTERDAY. A Google search turned up several more stories along the same lines. It wasn't until I read the ACTUAL press release on the McD's corporate website did the ACTUAL story become clear. Basically, as stores are updated and renovated, they will also include automated ordering kiosks as well as a myriad of other technological advances. Nothing about cutting down on labor costs and no timeline (except "over the next several years")...just the FACTS. But hey...just the FACTS does a terrible job of generating click-bait articles.
 

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American
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If the cost of American production is so expensive, why are Asian and European automakers building cars here now?

There are flaws in the logic of the article.
Precisely. Some of which have been documented in this thread already and others haven't but the Globalists will not stop misrepresenting and downright lying about how things work. My favorite was yesterday with some pundit saying that a reduction in taxes like Trump has proposed was a) unprecedented and b) would lead to "$10 Trillion more in national debt". If you are old enough to remember Reagan's first term you, like I, knew immediately that he is a liar. Same on the cost of things.
 

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Seasteading Aficionado
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The estimates given in this article ate accurate with CURRENT regulations and trends. American goods are higher priced due to higher saleries, safety regulations, environmental regulations, taxes, and a host of other things. Not to mention the lack of sales in comparison to the low cost imported junk.

Now, let's think about this. What if taxes were significantly lower? What if there were no unions? What if Asian made products cost just as much as American ones due to tariffs? What if American companies sold the bulk of products over imports?

See, simple economics means looking at the whole picture. If American companies sell more volume they can charge less, if American companies have less tax and fewer moronic regulations they can charge less.

It's really simple stuff. One thing these "analysts" fail to grasp is that trump is going to make these companies want to produce in the us, he's not going to force them. He's going to create an environment friendly to American production. Costs won't go up because profits will increase on their own.

Besides, wanting cheap crap is a pretty terrible reason to cause an unemployment epidemic, no? Be an American, buy American, and support your own country.

Also, while I'm here let me give an example. This is proof that businesses don't move production to offer better prices, they do it to improve profit.

Peavey amplifier company. They have made their amps in the USA forever, recently they moved all production to china however. Now, obviously their production costs are lower, right? What did it do to their retail price? NOTHING. The model 6505 cost $899 when made in the USA, now made in china it costs $899.
Good post, fairly accurate
 

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At 2:30 am Foxconn management woke prototype workers in their Foxconn owned apartments (on the company campus) to come in to work up a phone using the Gorilla Glass. Here is where I ask the question, Could those employees have refused? And what would happen to them if they did?

P.S. Don't confuse cheap goods as a great deal without considering the human and environmental impact included in that cheap price.
They actually installed nets around the top of the first floor to catch laborers trying to commit suicide by leaping from their dormitory windows.

They feed and house them in gender segregated dorms and then deduct the cost from their pay.
 

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American
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They actually installed nets around the top of the first floor to catch laborers trying to commit suicide by leaping from their dormitory windows.

They feed and house them in gender segregated dorms and then deduct the cost from their pay.
Sounds like many places in the US in the 1920s. Company store, company housing, company doctor, closed economy and employees in virtual servitude because their pay always left just a little uncovered of their expenses.
 

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The work itself, Ma said, isn't really all that bad. Mundane, yes. But not overwhelming. She puts in eight-hour days, five days a week, and tries to get as much overtime as possible. That's because the pay barely covers her needs.

She earns the 1,550 renminbi, or $244, a month that was common for Foxconn entry-level workers here before the August 1 raise. But after she pays rent for a bunk bed in a dormitory room that she shares with seven other Foxconn workers and purchasing food that she often buys at Foxconn's canteen, there's generally no money left to send back to her home. And she's terribly worried about rumors that property management company that runs the dorms in which she and 85 percent of the Zhengzhou workforce live is going to increase its rent.

For her, the answer is overtime. Ma tries to add as much overtime as she can to supplement her salary. After media reports surfaced about Foxconn allowing overtime in excess of Chinese law, which limits overtime to 36 hours a month, her boss has limited her opportunities to work longer shifts.
https://www.cnet.com/news/riots-suicides-and-other-issues-in-foxconns-iphone-factories/
 

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Seasteading Aficionado
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I don't think this is accurate. I only buy red wing boots made in America, the pair I get cost $219 a similar pair made in Asia run about 160. Where is the crazy price difference. Look at thorogood boots they are Union made and only run 180ish
I don't know the brands so I don't know the quality, but sometimes quality and how long It will last has a big impact on price as well as supply and demand. Price isn't a one step idea. It can be more complex than that. Most goods of similar supply and demand and quality will go up when made here, labor cost, regulations, taxes.

This is also just my opinion, but the more luxury you get and further away from a base model of a good shoe, or other item, I feel as the price gets really high, you get diminishing returns on the quality and usefulness of that product for the amount you paid. This is not always the case, but sometimes that is.

There is also name recognition, and Goodwill, and those things factor in the price as well.
 

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Seasteading Aficionado
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Not to mention both companies cut the leather here, shipp it out of the country to be tanned and dyed due to EPA rules, and then bring it back in for assembly. The Thorogood VP told me that adds $30 to $50 to each pair of boots
Another great post, end the EPA.
 

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Seasteading Aficionado
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
If the cost of American production is so expensive, why are Asian and European automakers building cars here now?

There are flaws in the logic of the article.
Shipping cost due to weight of products, we are seeing this a lot. Heavy, made in US, or closer, like Mexico. Does that help?
 
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