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Tactical Statistician
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
EDIT:

Here it is. I finally got it.

corporate pic


actual pic


The guy had it pimped out. It has the +2 tube extender, tac sling, flashlight with remote pressure switch, side saddle, custom weaver sight rail, BSA red dot, and a mac daddy bag. More pics on the last page.
 

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Tactical Statistician
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
budder said:
Have you fired one before? I didn't think I would mind the plastic until I actually tried using my friend's for shotgun night at IDPA. Ick.
I have not fired one.

Several folks on this forum have similar models of the Benelli. I was actually offered two (different people) in trade for the Beretta I had listed. I declined but then later went back to see about buying them outright. One had sold and the other decided to keep. They both seemed to like them. I have also read good things on other forums and in magazine reviews.

What exactly did you not like? I need to know these things before I order it. Aren't most of the 870s everyone else seems to have plastic too?
 

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I think the plastic fore end of the Nova gets slippery really fast. It doesn't feel secure to me and I would worry about my grip the entire time. And it felt cheap. Like it might break at any time. While I doubt it would, I don't want to be lacking in confidence where my HD equipment is concerned.

Regarding the 870, I'm most familiar with wood furniture, though I didn't seem to have any trouble with Bulldawg's marine magnum, which I think has the synthetic fore end. I only fired a few rounds while standing, not under time pressure, so it's possible that I would have had a similar problem with the synthetics used on the Remington. You may not have the same problem I did, but I would highly suggest shooting one first, even if it's just a few from standing, or a round of skeet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
ptsmith24 said:
USMC-R has this one for sale for $400, new. Not the same one as yours, though.
I looked at his but it has the long barrel. It the barrel was short I would probably get it. The camo looks cool.

Regarding the "cheap" factor. I have read a bunch of articles and posts on shotgun sites and forums. Stories of pretty brutal abuse at the hands of hunt guides and others. They have all seemed to love them. I think the overall perception is very similar to the Glocks. I read about this comparison in several articles. When Glocks came out you heard the same type of complaints or worries. Now look at 'em go.
 

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Vol, far be it from me to question anyone's choice in weapons, but remember how difficult it was to sell that Beretta? Resale market size and recognition are important considerations if and when you might ever decide to sell the gun. Rem 870s and Mossies are known, admired and desired by 90% of the market out there while I'd venture only a very small market share belongs to the Nova.

Just my .02
 

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Bah, go classic and get a coachgun! :wink:



That's a nice looking shotgun. I'm not a huge shotty fan, and I'd prefer a short AR for HD, but that does look pretty sweet.
 

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VOLGRAD said:
legacy38 said:
Get an 870 and put a 12" LOP stock on it. Trust me on this.

See if Clyde has any 870 police trade ins.
Tell me more about this 12" LOP stock you speak of.
Standard length of pull stock on an 870 is 13", but you can easily find a 12" stock thus taking an inch off of the length of pull thus shortening the "reach".

I bought an 870 trade in from Clyde's for $179. The new complete stock sets aren't that costly.
 

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Congrats VOLGRAD on your new Criminal Behavior Repeller. She looks gorgeous.

I'm just an Old School Dinosaur with a Remington 870.



It's still better than a pointed stick in the dark at 2:00 am, though.
 

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Tactical Statistician
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Marikhal said:
Just get a Benelli M4! :D
Nice, but too much $$$.

In doing some research, I came across this The Fighting Shotgun by Gabe Suarez. Gabe offers his experience & opinion on fighting shotguns. Good info.

As usual most on the Warrior Talk forum choose the 870. However, anytime the Benelli Nova and SuperNova shotguns were mentioned it was usually really good. There were several threads devoted to them.

I realize the 870 is a sure thing and I might have a time selling a Benelli if I decide I don't like it. However, I think I will gamble once again. I gambled on the Sig and look where that got me. Gabe's article though has got me thinking about all the accessorizing I was thinking about. I might end up with just the tube extender and a sling. The light might not make it on the SG after all. This might seem like a stupid concern to some but I have been thinking about a scenario where a light might actually be bad. I can see me making my way though my home looking for the BG. Yes, there would be low light but enough to navigate. I might want the advantage of not announcing that I am coming down the hall by shining a light. Ideally, a forearm with pressure activation would work well in this situation but they are costly. I saw a 870 with a SureFire forearm at Shuler's last week for $569. Decisions, decisions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
budder said:
Well, if you take Ken's shotgun course, you'll learn that you're not supposed to leave the :censored: light on the whole time. ;)
I still haven't taken a pistol course yet. Since I am still a beginner, I am going to try to take the Jan 5-6 Basic Handgun course. I am not quite up to speed like you "old" pros.
 

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VOLGRAD said:
Marikhal said:
Just get a Benelli M4! :D
Nice, but too much $$$.

In doing some research, I came across this The Fighting Shotgun by Gabe Suarez. Gabe offers his experience & opinion on fighting shotguns. Good info.

As usual most on the Warrior Talk forum choose the 870. However, anytime the Benelli Nova and SuperNova shotguns were mentioned it was usually really good. There were several threads devoted to them.

I realize the 870 is a sure thing and I might have a time selling a Benelli if I decide I don't like it. However, I think I will gamble once again. I gambled on the Sig and look where that got me. Gabe's article though has got me thinking about all the accessorizing I was thinking about. I might end up with just the tube extender and a sling. The light might not make it on the SG after all. This might seem like a stupid concern to some but I have been thinking about a scenario where a light might actually be bad. I can see me making my way though my home looking for the BG. Yes, there would be low light but enough to navigate. I might want the advantage of not announcing that I am coming down the hall by shining a light. Ideally, a forearm with pressure activation would work well in this situation but they are costly. I saw a 870 with a SureFire forearm at Shuler's last week for $569. Decisions, decisions.
Login is required for that link. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Gabe Suarez said:
I was asked by a number of readers to update them about the shotgun. They were asking about lights and magazine extensions and other attachments. Recently some other trainers were posting a great deal of material at "another" forum, and they gave all manner of must have suggestions. Rubish! I suspect many will disagree with my views on the combat use of the shotgun, but that has never stopped me before.

Let me begin by saying that I have used these fine implements against live fighting adversaries several times. Moreover, I received the classic training in this weapon at the academy which birthed the "modern technique" of the shotgun.

Training and reality sometimes conflict.

I have three shotguns at home. One is a Remington 870. Another is a Remington 11-87. A third one, a vintage side-by-side exposed hammer shotgun with many "rustlers" to its credit.

None have Ghost Ring Sights, Sidesaddles, Speedfeed stocks, Specially Ported or Choked barrells of ANY kind. They are light, simple, fast into action, and all of them are more than sufficient for any anti-personnel duties.

Things You Need:
A fast handling lightweight weapon that you can get into action very quickly, and that has at least 5 shots available.

Nice To Have - But Not Essential:
A Light: Many fights happen in low light. Having a flashlight mount makes sense. Its not essential as in most situations, there will be sufficient ambient light to tell what is going on and who is doing it at CQB-CRG distances. For those times when there is not, a light will help.

A Magazine Extension: Some guys like these so they can download it by a couple of rounds to transition to slugs. This is silly. Who wants to go to a gunfight with a weapon not loaded to full capacity. Not me. The load/switch to slug concept may have merit, but its use is so limited that I would much rather have an extra round of buckshot.

A Sling: For class its essential. For fighting its a nice-to-have item in the event you need to transition to pistol (much more likely than transitioning to slug).

Things You Do Not Need:
Ghost Ring Sights: In my opinion, the shotgun is NOT a rifle, nor should it be turned into one. The idea that you must somehow be able to reach out past CQB distances with a shotgun is a silly idea. Even the much discussed North Hollywood Bank Robbery involved shots within pistol range, and not way out there in rifle land.

Sidesaddles/Butt Cuffs: Many use these for slug switching. We've discussed that already. If your gun holds 7 or 8 shots and you need more than that, tactical withdrawl may be a better bet than anything else. How many shots are fired in pistol fights? It will be the same in shotgun fights. Sidesaddles make the gun heavy. Add a butt cuff in addition to the sidesaddle and it become heavier yet. Will you have lots of ammo? Sure. Will you be able to shoot and hit as accurately with a light fast gun or an overweight gun? I think you know the light fast gun will allow you better likelihood of NOT NEEDING a reload.

Want extra ammo? Ok, get a belly bag with two compartments. Fill one with buck shot and the other with slugs. Keep that with the shotgun and take it when you grab the shotgun. Its not as sexy as a sidesaddle and no elite bitchin guy SWAT dudes use it, but it makes more sense than a weapon you can't even bench press.

Ports/Choking, Special Barrels: Close Range shooting boys. Any shotgun barrell with any ammo will do just fine inside of 7 yards. At 15 yards it will open up slightly, but 15 yard shots are rare.

Other Points -

If you need a rifle, the shotgun is a poor substitute. A CAR15, or even a Marlin 30-30 will outshoot a slug loaded shotgun everytime. So grabbing a shotgun to do rifle duty is not a wise thing unless you are a cop whose administration does not trust its employees enough to give them rifles, and all you have and will ever have is a shotgun.

Slug loading has its place in a special situation, such as when you anticipate "contacts" in a car. I have a group of friends who routinely have such contacts and they load with slugs to penetrate through vehicles at close range. Same goes for guys who frequent bear country. A shotgun with slugs is good bear medeicine...or so I'm told. Both situations are rather close range deals, and not anything like what some so-called gunfighting schools are teaching.

What can a slug loaded shotgun do? It can reach a little farther and penetrate a little more than a buckshot loaded gun, or a pistol can do. A rifle will do better everytime. What can a buckshot loaded shotgun do? It can hit the adversary with something, even under bad conditions where your marksmanship has not kept up with the tempo of events in the mid to outer close range gunfighting zone. It is a weapon to be used at handgun distances against rapidly moving adversaries while you yourself are moving, where you cannot obtain (or don't have time to obtain) a suitable sight picture, and where the light is poor.

Examples:

1). Shooting a running adversary while you are also on the run in the dark - Distance 20 yards.

2). Multiple adversaries suddenly appearing in unison, again attempting to fire at you - Distance 3-5 yards.

Partial patterns will give you a hit, slugs or overly choked patterns may allow you to miss. Will thos epellets that don't hit the bad guy be a problem? Possibly. But if you miss with the slug because of the rapidly developing situation it won't matter either.

For CQB/CRG distances (within 5 yards) buckshot will outperform slugs every day of the week. Knowing that IF I grab a shotgun and go fight with it, it will be used in this situation more often than not, my round of choice is buckshot. I relegate slugs to "special purpose" applications. If I need a rifle, I'll go get a rifle.

While on the topic of buckshot: The ability to scallop a target standing behind a "hostage". I suggest a long deep inhale to smell the coffee. Then grab you best most expensive Tactical Shotgun with all the attachjments on it that the "cool" Gun Magazine Guys use. You know, the one with the famous shooting school logo on the stock and engraved so fetchingly on the receiver. Load it with the most expensive tactical gold-plated buckshot you can find and then stand off at 7, 10, or even 15 yards (whatever the shotgun school qual says).

Then place your daughter in front of that evil silohuette target. Still willing to take the shot? Some tactical cool guys will answer in the affirmitive. Then DO IT I say. Most of these guys have never fired a shot at a real human being before much less at a hostage past the ear of an innocent...with a shotgun much less. Fantasy always loses out to reality.

Technical exercises devised by clever minds on the firing range often fail to emulate reality. We've learned a great deal about CQB pistol fighting in the last few years simply by allowing ourselves to leave the doctrinal box. Perhaps its time we slay the sacred cow shotgun myth as well. Prove everything you train to yourself in force on force. If a technique cannot be replicated against real people, get rid of it.

Train for skill and attribute development, not to beat some silly shooting test, or some bobbing/weaving target dressed up in old clothes.

1). Know tactical advantage and Liabilities of Shotgun and their ammunition
2). Develop sound Firing Positions, Ready Positions as well as Ready Carry positions
3). Learn Reality based Marksmanship that takes advantage of the standard shotgun pattern
4). Learn tactically appropriate Gunhandling Drills & Transition to Pistol if suitable.
5). Learn CQB Responses to any point along a 360 arm's length to 7 yards. Its important to focus on fast close shooting because this is where you will use the weapon, not at the mythical rifle ranges some schools are suggesting..
6). Learn the ability to retain/recover/and fight with the weapon in body to body fight (including alternative force issues)
7). Learn Shooting in diminished light and the use of assisted lighting, as well as the use of Tactical Point Shooting.
8). Learn Shooting on the Move (in anything but firing from ambush you must move or get hit).
9). Learn Reality based Multiple adversary responses (not simply shooting at five pepper poppers).
10). Learn YOUR natural body speed and shoot as fast as YOU can guarantee the hits (not on how fast some "master" shot with his souped up Benelli back in 1990).

Develop these attributes and you will do well with your shotgun in any fight. The funny thing is that it doesn't take 5 days in the desert at a special school nor $1000 to teach you this material. Progressive/Reality-Based trainers can do it for a fraction of the cost in one weekend class. Isn't progress wonderful?!
__________________
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
One Source Tactical
[email protected]
Office 928-776-4492

Blessed be the Lord my rock
Who trains my hands for war
And my fingers for battle

Psalm 144:1
 
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