Guns that fire without a magazine

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by jrm, Aug 24, 2006.

  1. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Yesterday's AJC has an article about a LEO that was fired for pulling his gun at a girl's softball game. The LEO said he did not attempt to fire the gun, but that it "would not have been able to fire because the clip fell out of it."

    I understand there are some auto loaders that won't fire without a magazine, but I don't own any. So, I don't know who makes them or how common they are. I thought it was a little odd that they would be issued to LEOs.

    I understand there is some benefit to be gained from being able to hit the magazine release if you get into a struggle over your gun, thus rendering it unable to fire. I also understand some people think this feature should be standard to avoid negligent discharges, because of a common belief by those unfamiliar with guns that removing the magazine renders them unloaded.

    I don't like the feature, and wouldn't think LEOs would, either. What do others think?
     
  2. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired New Member

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    I have a Bersa Thunder 380 that does not fire without a magazine inserted. I personally think it is a disadvantage for the fact that in a tactical magazine change I like to change with "one in the pipe" so I have the ability to still fire. Of course this requires you to count your shots to change at the right time and I'm not so sure I would be counting in a real world tactical situation.
     

  3. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    jrm, you are just bashing LEOs. GS1 should lock this thread.
     
  4. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    :lol:

    Well, perhaps I was bashing LEO executives that issue such guns, but mostly I'm wondering what people think the feature generally, and whether it is a good idea to issue them to LEOs.

    And, as for the LEO who drew his weapon at his daughter's softball game, I think he may have engaged in self-bashing.
     
  5. ber950

    ber950 Active Member

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    Carry gun

    I had this feature on one carry gun (Browning P-35). It got broke. :twisted:
     
  6. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    Re: Carry gun

    Yeah, the Ruger MKIII has one as well. I helped a friend...uh break his so that it would not be such a pain when cleaning.

    I actually think a mag disconnect could be more dangerous in certain conditions. Like the MKIII that does not have a de-cocker, you have to insert a magazine and dry fire to be able to field strip. To me that is just asking for trouble.

    (they also screwed up with the chamber loaded indicator, it rested on the rim of a rimfire cartridge, guess what a hard blow to the indicator did? If you said fired the round you would be correct. They have since redesigned it)
     
  7. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    The Mark II does not seem to have those "features."
     
  8. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    That sounds like somebody that robs a store with a bb gun or unloaded gun. To me it does not matter that it would not have fired, it was the intent that it was used that matters.
     
  9. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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  10. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    Sorry. You know me. I'm a newsprint kind of guy. Best link I can give you is Metro section. Page C3. Law & Order. Headline = "Officer's firing after gun incident upheld."
     
  11. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    Short story so here is the entire thing:
     
  12. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired New Member

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    Seems to me they may not have fired him for lack of judgment but maybe for incompetence! Anyone who works in an armed profession that can't keep their clip from falling out when they draw their piece wouldn't be the one I would want backing me up in a firefight!
     
  13. jrm

    jrm Sledgehammer

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    It did occur to me that the LEO had a massive Barney Fife moment, but I did not want to point it out for fear of MP labeling me a LEO Basher. :p
     
  14. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired New Member

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    His next defense will be that while he did indeed draw his weapon, he never took the bullet from his shirt pocket. :lol:
     
  15. ls1ssdavid

    ls1ssdavid New Member

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    I think that this LEO kept his weapon in Condition 3 (Mag inserted, no round in chamber). He is just trying to make it seem less of a bad thing that he drew out. I doubt he owned or was issued a weapon that was disscussed above. I infact have never even heard of a weapon that doesn't fire when a mag isn't inserted. I guess you learn something new every day.

    USMC-Retired- I agree with you about not wanting a weapon that couldn't fire without a mag inserted. But, I don't count rounds. I just preform a Tactical Reload whenever there is a lull.
     
  16. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    It is an outgrowth of the anti-gun groups and liberal governments like California and New Jersey.
    First you have to realize that they think handguns like Glocks are inherently unsafe because if loaded, they will fire when you pull the trigger (no sear locking safety like a 1911 and others).

    So if someone without training drops the mag and aims it at someone and pulls the trigger, they are shocked that it fired and injured their friend. So to make guns safe from idiots, the gun will not fire without a mag inserted.

    The reason why gun companies add this crap is that some states will not allow a gun without such a feature to be sold in the state. So because of a few states wanted extra safety, everyone else gets them as well.

    Not that any of this stuff does any good. The loaded chamber indicator is a big one. I mentioned Ruger's new MKIII that would cause a round to fire if the indicator was hit hard enough, which if it was not found by a person (known as Bullseye on the MarkII forums) doing tests, it probably would have caused a real accident and gotten Ruger into a lawsuit. Even when a company adds these features and it functions properly, it does not stop the lawsuits as (I believe) Beretta was in because the chamber loaded indicator was not big/noticable enough. It was dismissed because the kid knew it had an indicator but just did not bother to check it before pulling the trigger.
     
  17. wwwilljr

    wwwilljr New Member

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    GAGunOwner, you are correct about the Browning Hi-Power. It locks the trigger from being pulled.
     
  18. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    I Like It

    I like the magazine disconnect feature for a carry gun, because of all the times I have to disarm myself and leave the weapon in my vehicle to go into a place where guns are prohibited by law. In those situations, which happens way too often to suit me, I usually drop the magazine and take it with me, while leaving the gun (with the one remaining round in the chamber) locked in the vehicle, sometimes further locked or disabled.

    But I probably would not bother clearing the weapon fully. That requires too much handling of the gun in what could be a public place, visible to others, and it certainly is hard on your ammo. Repeated chambering of the same round over and over can damage both the nose of the bullet and the rim of the case.

    I take some measure of comfort in the knowledge that IF a bad guy breaks into my car while I'm doing business at some "public gathering" he will not find a gun in working condition. He may STEAL my pistol, but he won't be able to use it to hurt anybody until he figures out how to disable the lock, etc.