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Florida SB 644 - OPEN Carry!

Discussion in 'National Laws, Bills and Politics' started by Phil1979, Feb 1, 2017.

Page 1 of 2

Feb 1, 2017 #1

Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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Okay, open carry was divided out of SB 140 to be its own separate bill.

Here it is!

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Secti...ocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0644&Session=2017

Not sure I dig that "display upon demand" of a LEO, though. Perhaps the courts will interpret that "demand" can only be done upon lawful detainment.

Phil1979, Feb 1, 2017

Phil1979, Feb 1, 2017
Feb 1, 2017 #2

Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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If you have family or friends in Florida, get them on the ball to call and email their lawmakers to get this thing passed! Post on Facebook, Twitter, Google Plus, Blogs, Forums, etc!

Phil1979, Feb 1, 2017

Phil1979, Feb 1, 2017
Feb 2, 2017 #3

moe mensale Well-Known Member

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Phil1979 said: ↑

Not sure I dig that "display upon demand" of a LEO, though. Perhaps the courts will interpret that "demand" can only be done upon lawful detainment.
Click to expand...

That's the same problem TX residents are having with their new OC law. Some cops are going to ask for the license only if they believe the citizen is engaging in suspicious behavior. Others are going to harass the crap out of citizens because they'll view OC as prima facie evidence of committing the crime of OCing a gun without license. In other words, guilty until proven innocent.

moe mensale, Feb 2, 2017

moe mensale, Feb 2, 2017
Feb 2, 2017 #4

Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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Phil1979 said: ↑

Not sure I dig that "display upon demand" of a LEO, though. Perhaps the courts will interpret that "demand" can only be done upon lawful detainment.
Click to expand...

Well, now, that is existing law. it is nothing new. How is it being interpreted already?

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017
Feb 2, 2017 #5

Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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Malum Prohibitum said: ↑

Well, now, that is existing law. it is nothing new. How is it being interpreted already?
Click to expand...

Florida has more than one appeals courts, unlike Georgia. It is a district system. There is a split in the circuits.

4th District.
Regalado v. State, 25 So.3d 600 (Fla. 4th DCA 2009)

Because it is legal to carry a concealed weapon in Florida, if one has a permit to do so, and no information of suspicious criminal activity was provided to the officer other than appellant's possession of a gun, the mere possession of a weapon, without more, cannot justify a Terry stop.
Click to expand...

http://www.4dca.org/opinions/Dec 2009/12-16-09/4D08-1609.op.pdf

3rd District
State v. Navarro, 464 So.2d 137, 139-40 (Fla. 3rd DCA 1985)

officers' observation of the outline of a firearm amounted to probable cause to believe that [the defendant] was carrying a concealed weapon, justifying not merely a pat-down, but a search
Click to expand...

5th Circuit
State v. Burgos, 994 So. 2d 1212, 1214 (Fla. 5th DCA 200

Although some citizens do have the right to carry concealed firearms lawfully, the vast majority do not
Click to expand...

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017
Feb 2, 2017 #6

Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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Oh, wait! It appears the Supreme Court resolved the split in 2013.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-supreme-court/1647018.html

First, Florida's legislative scheme causes us to hold that licensure is an affirmative defense to a charged crime of carrying a concealed weapon, as codified at section 790.01, Florida Statutes (2013),5 and the lack of a license is not an element of the crime. This conclusion is based upon a clear reading of section 790 .01 and consideration of its structure, the chapter of the Florida Statutes that governs firearms and other weapons, and the legal precedent on this issue. Notwithstanding this holding, we have determined that the role of licensure in the Florida legislative scheme is not dispositive of the resolution of the legality of the stop of Mackey. Instead, this matter can be addressed solely by reference to Fourth Amendment precedent from the United States Supreme Court and the totality of the circumstances presented by this case.
Click to expand...

Last edited: Feb 2, 2017

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017
Feb 2, 2017 #7

moe mensale Well-Known Member

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Malum Prohibitum said: ↑

Well, now, that is existing law. it is nothing new. How is it being interpreted already?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's existing law - FS 790.06(1):

[SIZE=-1]The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.[/SIZE]
Click to expand...

Like I said above, some (I think a lot) cops are just going to harass the crap out of open carriers just because they can. Particularly in the blue counties where many agencies are anti-OC.

Last edited: Feb 2, 2017

moe mensale, Feb 2, 2017

moe mensale, Feb 2, 2017
Feb 2, 2017 #8

Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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The record reflects that on the day in question, Officer May was patrolling in an area of Miami that is known for narcotics and firearms. Officer May explained that when he patrols, he observes hand gestures, waistbands, and pockets, “especially in that area.” It was in that geographic location that he observed Mackey with a firearm in his pocket. Officer May stopped his vehicle and approached Mackey to speak with him. Office May explained that he did not draw his service weapon because he could observe Mackey's hands. No suspicion of illegal activity was necessary at this stage of the encounter because the United States Supreme Court has explained that “a seizure does not occur simply because a police officer approaches an individual and asks a few questions. So long as a reasonable person would feel free ‘to disregard the police and go about his business,’ California v. Hodari D., 499 U.S. 621, 628, (1991), the encounter is consensual and no reasonable suspicion is required.” Florida v. Bostick, 501 U.S. 429, 434 (1991).

However, when Officer May began to speak with Mackey, the nature of the encounter changed. When Officer May asked “if [Mackey] had anything on him,” Mackey responded in the negative. Officer May's observations had already identified a firearm in Mackey's pocket and, therefore, he knew that Mackey was lying. When the person blatantly lied to the police officer here about possession of a firearm while he was in a geographic area well known for illegal narcotics and firearms with the weapon in view, we conclude that the officer had a reasonable, articulable suspicion that the person may have been engaged in illegal activity, and this brief detention to further investigate whether a crime was being committed is constitutionally valid. Further, if a police officer suspects that an armed individual is engaged in illegal activity, it is entirely reasonable for the officer to have concerns for his personal safety and the safety of those around him.
Click to expand...

Given these circumstances, I am not sure how much enlightenment this gives the legal carrier, especially if openly carrying becomes legal, as to his status of being detained by every officer that sees him and holds a grudge against those carrying openly.

But there is this hopeful bit at the end, specifically addressing the holding in Regalado:

The Conflict Case

Based on the prior analysis, we conclude that the decision in Regalado is factually distinguishable from the decision below. Here, Officer May initially approached Mackey in a non-threatening manner and participated in a consensual encounter. It was Mackey's response to a question asked by Officer May during the consensual encounter that led Officer May to reasonably and articulably suspect that Mackey might be engaged in illegal activity. On the other hand, in Regalado, the officer stopped the defendant at gunpoint and ordered him to the ground solely on the basis that the officer believed the defendant was carrying a firearm in the waistband of his pants. Regalado, 25 So.3d at 601–02. The officer did not ask the defendant any questions, and the Fourth District Court of Appeal specifically noted that “no information of suspicious criminal activity was provided to the officer other than appellant's possession of a gun.” Id. at 601. Given the differing factual circumstances that preceded the two different stops at issue, we conclude that even though the decisions appear to be in conflict, the cases can be reconciled, and no actual conflict exists.
Click to expand...

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017
Feb 2, 2017 #9

Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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Is that an approval of the Fourth Circuit's holding in Regalado? I don't know. it certainly hints that way.

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017

Malum Prohibitum, Feb 2, 2017
Mar 15, 2017 #10

Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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http://www.ammoland.com/2017/03/flo...-again-open-carry-campus-carry/#axzz4bQNqSfD1

Phil1979, Mar 15, 2017

Phil1979, Mar 15, 2017
Mar 23, 2017 #11

Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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Look for my next Ammoland.com article on Florida Open Carry and Campus Carry soon. It's gonna be a hard hitting, take no prisoners article.

Phil1979, Mar 23, 2017

Phil1979, Mar 23, 2017
Mar 23, 2017 #12

Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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Malum Prohibitum, Mar 23, 2017

Malum Prohibitum, Mar 23, 2017
Mar 23, 2017 #13

Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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Here's a little blog article to whet the appetite: http://pursuitofpatriotism.blogspot.com/2017/03/florida-senator-anitere-flores-how.html

I submitted my Ammoland article late last night so let's give them a little time.

Malum Prohibitum said: ↑

Click to expand...

Phil1979, Mar 23, 2017

Phil1979, Mar 23, 2017
Mar 24, 2017 #14

moe mensale Well-Known Member

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phil1979 said: ↑

Here's a little blog article to whet the appetite: http://pursuitofpatriotism.blogspot.com/2017/03/florida-senator-anitere-flores-how.html
Click to expand...

Paraphrasing Mornay in Braveheart: "I'd say that was rather less cordial than she was used to."

moe mensale, Mar 24, 2017

moe mensale, Mar 24, 2017
Mar 29, 2017 #15

Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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As promised, it has arrived! https://www.ammoland.com/2017/03/florida-open-carry-campus-carry-bills-different-actors-same-stink/

Phil1979, Mar 29, 2017

Phil1979, Mar 29, 2017
Mar 30, 2017 #16

Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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Anyone know of any conservative/libertarian TV news anchors in Florida?

Phil1979, Mar 30, 2017

Phil1979, Mar 30, 2017
Mar 31, 2017 #17

moe mensale Well-Known Member

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Contact Florida Carry. They might know some bodies.

moe mensale, Mar 31, 2017

moe mensale, Mar 31, 2017
May 17, 2017 #18

Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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Open Carry, Campus Carry, and Airport Carry dead again thanks to the RINOs in Florida:

http://pursuitofpatriotism.blogspot.com/2017/05/florida-pro-gun-bills-dead-yet-again.html

Phil1979, May 17, 2017

Phil1979, May 17, 2017
May 18, 2017 #19

moe mensale Well-Known Member

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Well, if nothing else, they're being consistent in not being able to accomplish anything.

moe mensale, May 18, 2017

moe mensale, May 18, 2017
May 18, 2017 #20

Savannah Dan Cross-drawer

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I only go to Florida to fish anyway.

Savannah Dan, May 18, 2017

Savannah Dan, May 18, 2017

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