Flag Burning incident

Discussion in 'Off-topic' started by glockgirl, Apr 4, 2007.

  1. glockgirl

    glockgirl New Member

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    This makes me mad especially when they aren't even citizens. well one was. If you don't like the US go back where you came from!!! :soapbox: :rant:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,263927,00.html

    NEW HAVEN, Conn. — Three Yale University students were arrested and charged with arson and other offenses after they allegedly set fire to an American flag hanging from the porch of a New Haven neighborhood home.

    The three were arrested early Tuesday after officers on patrol spotted the burning flag and tore it from the pole where it was mounted to the house on Chapel Street, police said.

    Said Hyder Akbar, 23, Nikolaos Angelopoulos, 19, and Farhad Anklesaria, also 19, were arrested on charges ranging from reckless endangerment to arson.

    Freshmen Angelopoulos and Anklesaria are both foreign citizens. Anklesaria is British and Angelopoulos is Greek.

    Akbar, a senior, was born in Pakistan, according to police, but is a U.S. citizen. Both Anklesaria and Angelopoulos had to turn over their passports.

    Akbar worked as an informal translator for U.S. forces during the invasion of Afghanistan and later published a memoir, "Come Back to Afghanistan," based on his experiences there, the Yale Daily News reported Wednesday.

    At their arraignment in Superior Court a few hours after their arrests Tuesday, bond was kept at $25,000 for Angelopoulos and Akbar, but was reduced to $15,000 for Anklesaria.

    They are being charged with two counts of reckless endangerment, breach of peace, criminal mischief in the third-degree, arson in the second-degree, conspiracy for arson, conspiracy for breach of peace, conspiracy for mischief and conspiracy for reckless endangerment.

    Some charges were added by Assistant State's Attorney Karen Roberg after the three were arrested and charged by New Haven police. She substituted the arson charges for reckless burning.

    Police said the students had two encounters with officers.

    Officers Stephanija Van Wilgen and Diane Gonzalez were responding to an unrelated call in New Haven at about 3 a.m. and were flagged down by the students, who asked for directions.

    A short time later, the two officers returned to Chapel Street to see if the students had found their way home and spotted the burning flag.

    "There was a glow in front of the house which they identified as a flag mounted on a pole to the house and it was engulfed in flames," police spokeswoman Bonnie Posick said.

    Van Wilgen pulled down the burning flag to prevent the fire from spreading, and Gonzalez tracked down the young men.

    The police report says one of the officers woke up the residents on the first and second floors of the house to tell them about the incident. The people living there are not the homeowners, however, and likely are renters.

    The police report does not indicate whether or not alcohol was involved in the incident, but the students were not given sobriety tests.

    Police said Akbar was wearing a hooded sweatshirt that read in bold letters, "I am Famous in Afghanistan," reported The New Haven Register. The political science major was quoted in a Yale Daily News story last year as saying that he was a native of Afghanistan.

    Marc Suraci, 37, owner of the two-story house on Chapel Street where the flag was burned, said he always puts flags out in front of his rental properties and said several of his relatives fought in American wars to defend the constitutional right to burn the flag as a protest.

    "It makes me sick to my stomach to think that someone would burn the American flag," Suraci, who believes flag burning should be illegal, told the New Haven Register. "But it gets to another level when it is somebody else's flag on their own personal property."
     
  2. Macktee

    Macktee New Member

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    That was dangerous as well as stupid. They could have just as easily ended up charged with murder.

    In spite of what's mentioned in the article, I'm willing to bet alcohol was involved...


    Speaking of flags, there's the flap over the "artwork" in the city (or county or whatever) building with slogans painted on 30-some odd flags that a couple of cops have complained about for creating a "hostile work environment".

    What I find really surprising about that whole thing is the American Legion hasn't come charging in like they usually do when someone mishandles or disresepcts the flag. So far, not a peep outta them!
     

  3. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    I'll probably catch a lot of flak for this and a lot of people on this board will think differently of me for this...but here goes...



    I would burn an American flag. I would burn it on the steps of Congress or anywhere else.

    I would do this not because I hate America, not because I am a subversive, not because I would get any joy from it but because I believe so much in the entire Bill of Rights that I want to preserve all forms of dissent.

    I would take no pleasure in doing so because for two years I was in the color guard for jrotc and presented the flag at numerous events. But I believe that burning the flag is a very powerful and emotional way to show dissent.
     
  4. USMC - Retired

    USMC - Retired Active Member

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    The problem with that logic is that it will instantly turn a majority of the people that you are trying to get on your side against you. It has such a strong emotional response that extreamly few will be paying any attention to what your dissent is concerning.
     
  5. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    So long as I still have the right to do so...
     
  6. Adam5

    Adam5 Atlanta Overwatch

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    I saw that on the news. Appearently, if you decipher the mixed up letters on the flags, it says " It's politically OK to hate the white man."

    It's hanging at City Hall East on Ponce.
     
  7. Macktee

    Macktee New Member

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    I agree with Ramm.

    I can't imagine I would ever burn a flag unless it was to properly dispose of an old and tattered one. As USMCR said, doing so sends a very powerful and emotional message, but one that should continue to be considered protected speech.

    I'm proud of my old schoolmates, US Senator from KY Mitch McConnell, who believes the same and has almost by himself prevented a vote on a constitutional amendment prohibiting this action. I know Mitch and know he is also revulsed by people burning flags, but he believes more in the First Amendment than he hates flag burners.

    The most important thing about protecting free speech is that we protect all speech. Even that we disagree with or totally hate. Maybe even especially that!

    One of the Founders said something to the effect I disagree with what you say but will protect to the death your right to say it.

    I'm embarrassed to admit I can't remember the exact quote or even who said it, but I totally agree!
     
  8. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    It was actually Voltaire.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
     
  9. gunsbillygun

    gunsbillygun New Member

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    i ant going there, i ant touching this one , god bless you all.
     
  10. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    Why not? I think we can all discuss this like adults.
     
  11. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    It's not mixed up. It says Politically its OK to hate the white man, and it also says Is it OK to hate if you have been victimized (that last one might not be a quote).

    The "artist" is "surprised" by the hubbub.
     
  12. gunsbillygun

    gunsbillygun New Member

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    yep, your right we are all adults, so here is how i see it.
    just because it is your right does not make it right,
    you sed Ram that burning a flag is avery powerful way of showing dessent, true, it is also a very powerful way of showing disrespect,
    the American flag does not stand for our Goverment, it stands for our Country, the same Country i stood and fought for, i did not fight for my goverment, but this Country witch my Father, my Grandfathers , my Uncles fought for. to ME, when a person burnes a flag ,he disrespects all those who stood up and laied down there lives . if a person has a problem with the way the GOVERMENT runs things there are other ways to get your point across with a lot better reaction from your supporters.
    if we as 2nd adm supporters were to go to Washington and dimastrate our discord with the laws and we burned an American Flag to show our dessent, what do you think the response would, would we get our point across as to what we are there for or would we be discredited and hated (maybe not the right words but you get my point)
    yes it is your right to have the freedom to do this thing, but why would any one who is an American even conseder it.
    this is my Country, this is my Flag,this is what I stand for.
    as Americans we need to stand for something, we need to have something that is ours, that we can be proud of , our Goverment ant it, our Flag stands for more than a peace of cloth with some stripes and stars. it stands for freedom, it stands for our right to be free, and those who fought for that freedom, so my point is if you want to burn something to show your discontent with what ever. burn a dubbie and be happy, but please dont try and burn my Flag, i fought once for it i will fight for it again. thank you, this is not ment to be disrespectful to any one, this is MY right, and MY freedom of speech.
     
  13. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    gunsbillygun, thanks for the response.

    I can certainly appreciate your point of view. Believe me, I know it. I am fanatical about how to treat the flag respectfully. Just ask my parents when a few fourth of July's back my dad had put miniature American flags in the ground all along the outside of our lawn. I told him that some were touching the grass and that was not proper. He sorta ignored me so I went out side and took them all out of the ground. My parents got pissed.
    And like I said before, I did color guard for two years in high school where we did hundreds of events. We even presented the colors at a Georgia Force arena football game. So I do understand and respect the flag.

    Where we differ in opinion is that I believe that regardless of how people should treat the flag every American should have the right to burn the flag. And like it or not, the flag does not just stand for the country; it also stands for those who are in power not just in the Executive but in every branch of government. Also, people do fight for their government because the people making the decisions dictate who we as a nation fight. So soldiers do ultimately fight for the current politicians in power. But that is not entirely relevant to our current discussion.

    Should Second Amendment supporters go to the capitol to burn the American flag? No. There really isn't a need to. You said "but why would any one who is an American even consider it." Well, some in this country have the same exact feeling about guns. Yeah we have the right to have them...but why would any American want to?

    What I stand for is far greater than what pieces of fabric can ever convey. Because the flag is many things to many people. To some it is a sign of hope and freedom, while to others it is a sign of oppression. I exude what I stand for through my actions.

    I view burning the American flag much in the same vein as those crazy church people who say God is punishing America by killing our solders because we tolerate gays. If I were a lesser man and didn't believe in absolute freedom I would beat them senseless. But I don't. I don't because I recognize that no matter how vile, disrespectful, or repugnant I find their speech to be I must compel myself to defend it. And I believe that any American that believes completely in the Bill of Rights would stand with me and defend that speech.

    Like the guys on South Park once said: "Free Speech...it is either all free or none of it is."
     
  14. glockgirl

    glockgirl New Member

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    ok Ramm, I agree with the support of free speech but I still find it totally disrespectful for non US citizens to come here and enjoy our country and then be soooo rude. If you don't like america or what we do then GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY. I don't think noncitizens have earned the right to be critical of our country while living here. I see the flag as America. Many AMERICANS have laid down their life for our country. So if an American wants to have dissent so be it. A noncitizen has not earned that and should not show disrespect to the flag. No I have not served in the military but was a faithful army spouse and all my family members have served or been military brats. I guess gunsbillygun said it pretty much like I would have but definitely more eloquently.

    I work with alot of foreigners and all they do is complain about America so I tell them love it or leave it.
     
  15. gunsbillygun

    gunsbillygun New Member

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    ok part 2
    you sed it well Ram. an AMERICAN has the right to.
    GG- AMERICANShave the right to.
    non-Americans , dont let me catch you, or the flag wont be the only thing getting smoked. :evil:

    thank you Ram, for letting me have my say without any hard feelings,
    though we dont agree on some parts we all agree on the important parts,
    freedom isnt free, and God help those who try and take it away.
     
  16. gunsbillygun

    gunsbillygun New Member

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    sorry i forgot to turn the under line thing off :?
     
  17. glockgirl

    glockgirl New Member

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    yep I think we agree on the important stuff..... won't tell you how many times I have gotten in a heated arguement with people just being careless with the flag. Ooooo That makes me so mad!!!
     
  18. foshizzle

    foshizzle New Member

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    I'm an ex-Marine. My dad is an ex-Marine. I've served my country so I have some grounds to speak my .02.

    I can't recall ever getting angry with someone buring an American flag. If you want to properly observe flag etiquette, you wouldn't ever let it touch the ground (touch your car window) or do anything that would soil it. You would take it down at night and fly it correctly during the day. Most people don't.

    Slapping a flag on your car window doesn't make you patriotic... slapping it on your shoulder, taking an oath and grabbing an M16 does. By the same reasoning (my own), burning one doesn't make you unpatriotic. You're just disposing of it incorrectly.

    Burning it, spitting on it and saying "Death to America" the whole time is kind of offensive, but apparently not against the law. But here we are trying to get the Georgia legislature to "grant" us our permit faster so we can exercise one of the same basic rights the flag-burners have. I hate hypocrasy and it's just another example.

    Personally... I would applaud the first citizen who decided to sling an unregistered full-auto AK across his back, tell everyone to go F themselves, kneel towards Mecca while burning a flag and then dare a cop to arrest him. I bet he wouldn't be "free" for say... 10-20 years?

    My .02.
     
  19. gunsbillygun

    gunsbillygun New Member

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    yep , freedom of speech, i do agree however an the full auto thing.
     
  20. Rammstein

    Rammstein New Member

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    While I can agree with you guys to a certain extent, I still feel that dissent is something that everyone has the right to do no matter country of origin.