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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
:shock:

Oh, no!

Or, maybe the piece is a little misleading? :D

Here is a quote from the piece in the NYTimes.

When the law was first enacted, there were fewer than 25,000 licensed gun holders. Since then, the state roll has boomed to 410,000 and counting. As the veil descends on this dangerously macho part of the public record, enterprising articles in The Florida Sun-Sentinel are laying bare the fact that more than 1,400 people easily got gun licenses despite pleading guilty or no contest to felonies that included manslaughter, burglary and child molestation. In Broward County alone, gun licenses grew in 20 years to more than 35,000 from 25.

Sampling records just before the law took effect, the newspaper uncovered hundreds of tales of mayhem, official indifference and glaring loopholes in criminal justice protection. One man got a license after pleading no contest to manslaughter in fatally shooting his girlfriend in the head while she cooked him breakfast. Another applicant was licensed despite guilty pleas to grand theft and assault charges for holding a handgun against his roommate’s head in an argument.

Those permitted to pack concealed weapons include 216 people with outstanding criminal warrants, 128 under domestic violence injunctions and 6 registered sex offenders.
Pretty scary stuff, huh?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
So John Lott (who has a link to GCO on his page!) took a look at the issue.

This editorial is very deceptive in that it implies that felons are obtaining permits. But these individuals were not convicted of "felonies." Florida judges have the power to take a plea, impose probation (without entering a conviction) and once the person completes that, "withhold conviction." These individuals are eligible for a permit because they were not convicted of anything.

If the cases are as horrible or the evidence as clear as you claim, why are the judges withholding convictions? Second, I talked to a Mary Kennedy with Florida's licensing department and she confirmed for me that only one person last year lost his permit for any firearms related violation. That is 1 out of 410,000 permit holders. See my similar discussion here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
One out of 410,000, and we do not even know what the reason was.

Does anyone know the murder rate per 100,000 in Florida? Take that number and multiply it by 4.1 to get the expected figure if Florida license holders were even as dangerous as the average population in Florida.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Malum Prohibitum said:
Does anyone know the murder rate per 100,000 in Florida?
Ooh! Ooh! I know! I know!

Florida, according to this thread had a rate of 5.3 per 100,000. Accordingly, among 410,000 license holders, you would expect to see 21.73 murders last year by license holders, if they were as dangerous as the population at large. (4.1 x 5.3 = 21.73). That is for just one year. You would expect to see this score of murders every year, year in and year out.

Could you imagine the news stories if there were even two or three over the last decade and a half? :shock:

Oh, by the way, Washington D.C., which has laws regarding the carry of firearms of which the NYTimes author would presumably approve, had a rate of 35 per 100,000. No, that is not a misprint. Florida = 5.3. D.C. = 35. :shock:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
21 murders a year. Every year.

But they don't happen.

And yet the liberal press always wants to portray concealed carry as "dangerous" to the public. Why don't they print the truth?
 

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Malum Prohibitum said:
21 murders a year. Every year.

But they don't happen.

And yet the liberal press always wants to portray concealed carry as "dangerous" to the public. Why don't they print the truth?
The press has no time to find out if things are true, they only have time to regurgitate what others have told them are true, without verification.
 

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Gunstar1 said:
Malum Prohibitum said:
21 murders a year. Every year.

But they don't happen.

And yet the liberal press always wants to portray concealed carry as "dangerous" to the public. Why don't they print the truth?
The press has no time to find out if things are true, they only have time to regurgitate what others have told them are true, without verification.
...as long as it fits their views.
 

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They don't call it the New York Slimes for fun you know.
 

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pro2am said:
Gunstar1 said:
Malum Prohibitum said:
21 murders a year. Every year.

But they don't happen.

And yet the liberal press always wants to portray concealed carry as "dangerous" to the public. Why don't they print the truth?
The press has no time to find out if things are true, they only have time to regurgitate what others have told them are true, without verification.
...as long as it fits their views.
It goes either way. The reporters just get quotes from the anti-gun groups and post what they have to say. That way if you call the reporter on it, they can say they were merely repeating what the person said and that it was not something the reporter themselves are wrong about.

Even if the reporter agrees 100% with the incorrect statement and is the one that stacked the deck so that only 1 person is quoted as for it and get quotes from 2-3 anti's to "balance" the article.

If there is something they disagree with and they have no one that will go on the record to specifically refute it, well then they just don't put that in the news. If the news reported on every justified self defense whether the gun was fired or not, then there would be ample proof that guns are used more often as self defense.

If you can't refute the data that backs up a view counter to what the reporter believes, then you simply don't report on it and simply say the story is not "news worthy".
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I sent an email to John Lott inquiring into the circumstances of the one license revocation, but he has not (yet) responded.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Malum Prohibitum said:
I sent an email to John Lott inquiring into the circumstances of the one license revocation, but he has not (yet) responded.
Response:

Dear Ed:

Thanks for the note. I started looking through the thread, and, as the earlier discussion on my website noted the Florida newspaper articles indicated, most of these violations are people accidentally carrying guns into restricted areas. There is absolutely nothing that I know of that indicates that this one case involved a murder, but they don't break these things down more precisely.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Letters:

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/01/31/Opini ... mits.shtml

In your paper's nearly hysterical tirade against Florida's concealed weapon permit laws, it was reported that a total of 1,750 concealed weapon permits were mistakenly issued to individuals with criminal records or other disqualifiers. That is 1,750 out of a total of 410,000 permits issued, which translates to less than one-half of 1 percent.
Stop the NRA

Thank you for your editorial concerning the insanity of Florida's so-called gun laws. I have said this before and I will say it until the people of this state rise up and assert themselves: It is way past time to break the stranglehold the NRA has on this state and this country.

If you are a criminal, a drug dealer, a terrorist or just some poor sap who feels less than whole without a firearm, then there is no better friend than the National Rifle Association. Too many people in Florida and elsewhere die because of the spineless, gutless wonders who would flip over backward like trained seals when Marion Hammer or some other NRA lobbyist tells them to (especially the recently departed Jeb Bush).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=47924

Concealing the Facts
New York Sun Staff Editorial
February 2, 2007

In respect of gun control, we don't mind saying that it's not the issue that keeps us up at night. But as an emblem of the irrational streak in our political debate these days, it's without peer, a point about which we were reminded by the editorial in Tuesday's Times, "A Day Without Guns Å ." It was arguing, if that's the word, against Florida's liberalized concealed carry laws. Basing its comments on research done by the Florida Sun-Sentinel that showed some criminals in Florida have gotten permits to carry concealed weapons, the Times decried the state Legislature's "gruesome handiwork." It chided the "corrupt and cowardly" legislators who refused to "undo these lethal threats" created by legal concealed carry.

Our first thought was that Floridians are grown-ups possessed of rational minds and capable of making their own laws without the Times' haranguing. This is what Floridians have done over the last two decades by repeatedly electing representatives who believe Americans have a right, vouchsafed in the Second Amendment of the Constitution, to keep and bear arms. It's a right that has been called the palladium of American liberty. But about what was the Times speaking with the claim that Florida's concealed carry laws are "lethal" and "gruesome"?

Since the Jack Hagler Self Defense Act went into effect in 1987, crime in Florida has gone down by almost every measure there is.
According to statistics provided by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, firearm murders in Florida between 1987 and 2005 dropped in real terms to 521 from 697. Expressed as the number of firearm murders per 100,000 persons, the drop is even more dramatic, to 2.9 from 5.8. That's a change of 50%. The drop in violent crime overall is less precipitous but equally steady, including drops in the rates of murder, aggravated assault, robbery, and sexual assault.

It is difficult to argue that permitting more persons to carry concealed weapons in and of itself caused this drop in crime, although some have tried. Causal relationships of that nature are notoriously tricky to pin down, and the relationship between crime and concealed carry has been explored in academic circles for years, with little consensus. But it's even harder, given the statistics, to argue that legalizing the carry of concealed weapons has increased crime. Or that it has had some terrible adverse consequence.

Predictions of wild-West style shootouts and lawlessness have proven false. That's not what happened. Not in Florida or in any of the other 37 states with legalized concealed carry. There is nothing "lethal" or "gruesome" about permitting law-abiding citizens to defend themselves by carrying a weapon - or simply to carry a weapon without defending themselves. The truth is that if there is a lesson to be drawn from the Sun-Sentinel's reporting, it's not, as the Times suggests, that there is something wrong with existing laws. Rather it is that judges should start treating criminals as the law prescribes.

In Florida, the law on concealed carry allows persons who have committed serious crimes and have reached plea agreements with judges to have their records scrubbed, to become eligible once more to receive a concealed carry license. An ordinary person might expect an editorial writer opining on all this, particularly in a city where the mayor is trying to make an issue out of "illegal" guns, to look into the statistics on crime and include these facts in an editorial, if only to deal with them. But at the Times, they're not fit to print.
 
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