Feds Track Your Credit Cards in Real-Time Without a Warrant

Discussion in 'Off-topic Political' started by EJR914, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. EJR914

    EJR914 Cheezburger Operator

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    I really hope this is not true. It appears this countries law enforcement doesn't need a warrant to do anything anymore. When are these violations of our 4th amendment rights going to end?

    The article isn't long, but here it is: http://www.networkworld.com/community/b ... s-real-tim

    Here is the DOJ Powerpoint on "HotWatch": http://www.scribd.com/doc/44542244/DOJ- ... ansactions.

    Guess its time to start using cash only, huh? :mrgreen:
     
  2. SheriffOconee

    SheriffOconee New Member

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    EJR, did you read the third slide in the PowerPoint presentation???
    There are several ways to get the records, including a search warrant.
    It is like any other kind of tracking we do using various corporate outlets. We have to convince a Judge that we have PC to believe not only that the credit card, cellphone, debit card will be used, but that the information obtained is necessary to the advancement of the case, and can't be gathered by any other means.
    THEN we have to deal with the cell phone, credit card, or whatever company, and have a line of communication open with them so we can know if we are pinging a phone, tracking a credit card, whatever.
    I am certain that none of this is really a surprise to anyone
     

  3. EJR914

    EJR914 Cheezburger Operator

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    So the Feds still need PC and a warrant to track CC in real-time? I know state agencies still do. The article was talking about Feds, specifically. FBI, ect..
     
  4. JMan

    JMan New Member

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    Yes
     
  5. EJR914

    EJR914 Cheezburger Operator

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    I'm not really sure about Feds writing their own subpoenas, as I am not an attorney, but this guy is quoted in the article as saying that Feds are writing their own subpoena to get these HotWatches, and the Court is only there to enforce the rules that the banks cannot tell the customer they are being watched. Soghoian is claiming that these subpoenas side-step the need for the warrant, and that they can simply be written by the Feds themselves, the courts are only there to make sure the banks keep their part of the bargain.

    They also make it clear in the article that the document they had in the middle of the article is the only document they could find on "HotWatches" from the DOJ and that it did not contain the information that this guy is talking about. :sly:

    From the article.

    Soghoian doesn't give any proof that the Feds are really just writing subpoenas and the courts are merely backing them up. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. As I said, I'm not an attorney, and do not know if now Feds are allowed to write their own subpoenas.

    Honestly, nothing would surprise me anymore in this Post Patriot Act world that we live in. We already have the warrantless wiretaps, and warrantless GPS tracking on your car as long as its in your drive way. Due process is gone, just say they are a terrorist, and you are held indefinitely without due process, you could literally never see your day in court to answer the charges that you are being accused of.

    Maybe it is the same with this. A Fed says, "we think he's a terrorist," and all the sudden they write their own subpoenas, the courts uphold it, and boom, they are watching your CC transactions real-time. The Patriot Act was a game changers. I think it all but took away our 4th amendment and Due Process rights.
     
  6. SheriffOconee

    SheriffOconee New Member

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    EJR, it is slide number 3 in the PowerPoint presentation that you linked. (DOJ=Department of Justice, FBI, etc)
    We have worked with the Feds (US Marshalls) hunting fugitives. The paperwork HAS to be in order......
     
  7. EJR914

    EJR914 Cheezburger Operator

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    See my above post. The PowerPoint is the only one they could receive from the DOJ that mentions HotWatches. It says nothing about the Feds writing their own subpoenas. They admit that in the original article. The PowerPoint listed is not a smoking gun, its simply the only one they could get their hands on.

    Like I said above, this guy from the article doesn't offer any shred of proof that these Feds are writing their own subpoenas. I was thinking maybe it had to do with the Patriot Act, and the way the 4th amendment and due process disappear when you are a possible "terrorist." That is my only guess.

    As you say with US Marshal's the warrant has to be there, and I would definitely agree that that is true. They may not be a suspected "terrorist."
     
  8. SheriffOconee

    SheriffOconee New Member

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    EJR, we write our own subpoenas too. In fact, if you were a defendant in Oconee County Superior Court, you could write you own subpoenas too. We get subpoenas all the time from a variety of sources. Any idiot can write a subpoena, even a Federal Agent.
    It is getting the Judge to SIGN it that it becomes problematic. No RAS, no PC???? Forget it.
    I will assure you that WE write our own subpoenas, then the DA has to sign off, then a Superior Court Judge has to sign off....my understanding of the Federal system is very similar
     
  9. Dan4010

    Dan4010 New Member

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    I am so glad to see Sheriff Oconee back on here.... his view point is so valuable...
     
  10. SheriffOconee

    SheriffOconee New Member

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    thanks, I read all the time, posting is another matter.....
     
  11. budone1967

    budone1967 Die Hard GCO Recruiter

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    +1
     
  12. CR2008

    CR2008 New Member

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    I read that there are cases where law enforcment can track your car without a warrant too now... I am not shocked that this is going on.
     
  13. SheriffOconee

    SheriffOconee New Member

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    I guess people can see your car go anywhere. Assuming the use of the public roadways and public parking lots, a car can be followed any number of ways.
    Virtually every store has video cameras, not only showing the customers but the parking lot as well...
    I wouldn't expect any privacy insofar as where my car is....even without technology
     
  14. RedDawnTheMusical

    RedDawnTheMusical Well-Known Member

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    Completely false and misleading. Virtually every episode of CSI Miami I watch clearly shows the super cops using a fully integrated and realtime database with a 3D interface that gives them any subjects DNA, current location (which is usually, oddly enough, already in one of their questioning rooms), all related gun registrations, etc. Naturally, I assume that all local Georgia law enforcement agencies are equipped with this technology (what do they call it? SCMODS?).

    Obviously the good sheriff is trying to pull the wool over our eyes here....
     
  15. EJR914

    EJR914 Cheezburger Operator

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    Great! Thanks for clearing that up SherrifOconee, I feel much better now. I went and did some research on subpoenas on the federal level and everything you say, is of course 100% correct even know. I'm just really glad to see the Patriot Act didn't change anything with regards to subpoenas. :righton:
     
  16. EJR914

    EJR914 Cheezburger Operator

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    :lol: We know the good Sheriff would never do anything like that. I had a college friend go on and become a CSI, and she just died laughing when I asked her how accurate that show was! She said it was a lot like watching COPS. As with COPS it is sometimes examples of what not to do. As with CSI Miami, she said they can't do most of the junk that they put on that show. She said it was a big joke. :righton:
     
  17. legacy38

    legacy38 Well-Known Member

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    ERJ,

    The investigating entity/party seeking the information actually writes the subpoena. A subpoena is a meaningless piece(s) of paper until a judge with jurisdiction over the case signs it.
     
  18. EJR914

    EJR914 Cheezburger Operator

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    Thank you Legacy. I appreciate the clarity here. I'm not an attorney, so I wasn't exactly sure how all that worked now, even in light of recent anti-terrorist legislation. :righton:
     
  19. legacy38

    legacy38 Well-Known Member

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    The other thing to remember about subpoenas is that if the subpoena is no good if what is being subpoenaed doesn't exist. In other words, you don't have to create a record just to satisfy a subpoena.

    You could subpoena the number of paper towels I use in a day, but if I don't keep records of my paper towel usage then the subpoena is worthless.

    I once investigated a stalking case in which I learned of incidents in which the suspect had stalked the victim as far back as middle school (not in Oconee). It was so bad that the school assigned an adult employee to escort the suspect from class to class to keep him in line. I subpoenaed the school board seeking all documentation of incidents involving the suspect and victim. The school had never put anything in writing involving the two particular people together; so, they had no records to provide to me (supposedly)

    It was up to the school system to comply with the subpoena. I wasn't physically pulling the records personally. I could have done a warrant and physically seized the suspect's entire record provided a judge signed the warrant. To head that off, the school officials wrote a letter detailing some of the incidents that had taken place, and the letter was sufficient for what I needed.

    The suspect later agreed to a court order preventing contact between the victim and him, but he was later arrested for stalking several other victims.
     
  20. gruntpain1775

    gruntpain1775 New Member

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    Legacy, Sheriff...stop trying to cover for the feds. Sure, they need a Judge to sign it. There are plenty that will that sit on the secret panel of Fed judges, created after 9/11 and help make things all legal....to combat Terrorism and all...