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I really hope this is not true. It appears this countries law enforcement doesn't need a warrant to do anything anymore. When are these violations of our 4th amendment rights going to end?

It should surprise very few to learn that federal law enforcement agencies track Americans without getting court orders, but this time the feds have been tracking U.S. residents using real-time surveillance of credit card transactions and travel reservations.
The article isn't long, but here it is: http://www.networkworld.com/community/b ... s-real-tim

Here is the DOJ Powerpoint on "HotWatch": http://www.scribd.com/doc/44542244/DOJ- ... ansactions.

Guess its time to start using cash only, huh? :mrgreen:
 

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EJR, did you read the third slide in the PowerPoint presentation???
There are several ways to get the records, including a search warrant.
It is like any other kind of tracking we do using various corporate outlets. We have to convince a Judge that we have PC to believe not only that the credit card, cellphone, debit card will be used, but that the information obtained is necessary to the advancement of the case, and can't be gathered by any other means.
THEN we have to deal with the cell phone, credit card, or whatever company, and have a line of communication open with them so we can know if we are pinging a phone, tracking a credit card, whatever.
I am certain that none of this is really a surprise to anyone
 

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Discussion Starter #3
SheriffOconee said:
EJR, did you read the third slide in the PowerPoint presentation???
There are several ways to get the records, including a search warrant.
It is like any other kind of tracking we do using various corporate outlets. We have to convince a Judge that we have PC to believe not only that the credit card, cellphone, debit card will be used, but that the information obtained is necessary to the advancement of the case, and can't be gathered by any other means.
THEN we have to deal with the cell phone, credit card, or whatever company, and have a line of communication open with them so we can know if we are pinging a phone, tracking a credit card, whatever.
I am certain that none of this is really a surprise to anyone
So the Feds still need PC and a warrant to track CC in real-time? I know state agencies still do. The article was talking about Feds, specifically. FBI, ect..
 

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EJR914 said:
SheriffOconee said:
EJR, did you read the third slide in the PowerPoint presentation???
There are several ways to get the records, including a search warrant.
It is like any other kind of tracking we do using various corporate outlets. We have to convince a Judge that we have PC to believe not only that the credit card, cellphone, debit card will be used, but that the information obtained is necessary to the advancement of the case, and can't be gathered by any other means.
THEN we have to deal with the cell phone, credit card, or whatever company, and have a line of communication open with them so we can know if we are pinging a phone, tracking a credit card, whatever.
I am certain that none of this is really a surprise to anyone
So the Feds still need PC and a warrant to track CC in real-time? I know state agencies still do. The article was talking about Feds, specifically. FBI, ect..
Yes
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm not really sure about Feds writing their own subpoenas, as I am not an attorney, but this guy is quoted in the article as saying that Feds are writing their own subpoena to get these HotWatches, and the Court is only there to enforce the rules that the banks cannot tell the customer they are being watched. Soghoian is claiming that these subpoenas side-step the need for the warrant, and that they can simply be written by the Feds themselves, the courts are only there to make sure the banks keep their part of the bargain.

They also make it clear in the article that the document they had in the middle of the article is the only document they could find on "HotWatches" from the DOJ and that it did not contain the information that this guy is talking about. :sly:

From the article.

Soghoian wrote, "The government's guidelines reveal that this surveillance often occurs with a simple subpoena, thus sidestepping any Fourth Amendment protections." Federal agents write their own subpoena to get real-time credit card information of a person's purchases. The only role that the courts play in the administrative subpoena process is to issue an order preventing the banks from telling their customers that the government is spying on their financial transactions. If law enforcement appears in front of a judge to get a search warrant by proving probably cause, the person being spied upon will eventually be notified.

Although the government "routinely" obtains hotwatch orders, the DOJ told Soghoian that this document was the only one they could find which was related to hotwatches. This would seem to indicate there is no policy regarding hotwatches or that related documents were withheld.
Soghoian doesn't give any proof that the Feds are really just writing subpoenas and the courts are merely backing them up. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. As I said, I'm not an attorney, and do not know if now Feds are allowed to write their own subpoenas.

Honestly, nothing would surprise me anymore in this Post Patriot Act world that we live in. We already have the warrantless wiretaps, and warrantless GPS tracking on your car as long as its in your drive way. Due process is gone, just say they are a terrorist, and you are held indefinitely without due process, you could literally never see your day in court to answer the charges that you are being accused of.

Maybe it is the same with this. A Fed says, "we think he's a terrorist," and all the sudden they write their own subpoenas, the courts uphold it, and boom, they are watching your CC transactions real-time. The Patriot Act was a game changers. I think it all but took away our 4th amendment and Due Process rights.
 

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EJR, it is slide number 3 in the PowerPoint presentation that you linked. (DOJ=Department of Justice, FBI, etc)
We have worked with the Feds (US Marshalls) hunting fugitives. The paperwork HAS to be in order......
 

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Discussion Starter #7
SheriffOconee said:
EJR, it is slide number 3 in the PowerPoint presentation that you linked. (DOJ=Department of Justice, FBI, etc)
We have worked with the Feds (US Marshalls) hunting fugitives. The paperwork HAS to be in order......
See my above post. The PowerPoint is the only one they could receive from the DOJ that mentions HotWatches. It says nothing about the Feds writing their own subpoenas. They admit that in the original article. The PowerPoint listed is not a smoking gun, its simply the only one they could get their hands on.

Like I said above, this guy from the article doesn't offer any shred of proof that these Feds are writing their own subpoenas. I was thinking maybe it had to do with the Patriot Act, and the way the 4th amendment and due process disappear when you are a possible "terrorist." That is my only guess.

As you say with US Marshal's the warrant has to be there, and I would definitely agree that that is true. They may not be a suspected "terrorist."
 

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EJR, we write our own subpoenas too. In fact, if you were a defendant in Oconee County Superior Court, you could write you own subpoenas too. We get subpoenas all the time from a variety of sources. Any idiot can write a subpoena, even a Federal Agent.
It is getting the Judge to SIGN it that it becomes problematic. No RAS, no PC???? Forget it.
I will assure you that WE write our own subpoenas, then the DA has to sign off, then a Superior Court Judge has to sign off....my understanding of the Federal system is very similar
 

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Dan4010 said:
I am so glad to see Sheriff Oconee back on here.... his view point is so valuable...
+1
 

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EJR914 said:
I really hope this is not true. It appears this countries law enforcement doesn't need a warrant to do anything anymore. When are these violations of our 4th amendment rights going to end?

It should surprise very few to learn that federal law enforcement agencies track Americans without getting court orders, but this time the feds have been tracking U.S. residents using real-time surveillance of credit card transactions and travel reservations.
The article isn't long, but here it is: http://www.networkworld.com/community/b ... s-real-tim

Here is the DOJ Powerpoint on "HotWatch": http://www.scribd.com/doc/44542244/DOJ- ... ansactions.

Guess its time to start using cash only, huh? :mrgreen:
I read that there are cases where law enforcment can track your car without a warrant too now... I am not shocked that this is going on.
 

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I guess people can see your car go anywhere. Assuming the use of the public roadways and public parking lots, a car can be followed any number of ways.
Virtually every store has video cameras, not only showing the customers but the parking lot as well...
I wouldn't expect any privacy insofar as where my car is....even without technology
 

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SheriffOconee said:
EJR, did you read the third slide in the PowerPoint presentation???
There are several ways to get the records, including a search warrant.
It is like any other kind of tracking we do using various corporate outlets. We have to convince a Judge that we have PC to believe not only that the credit card, cellphone, debit card will be used, but that the information obtained is necessary to the advancement of the case, and can't be gathered by any other means.
THEN we have to deal with the cell phone, credit card, or whatever company, and have a line of communication open with them so we can know if we are pinging a phone, tracking a credit card, whatever.
I am certain that none of this is really a surprise to anyone
Completely false and misleading. Virtually every episode of CSI Miami I watch clearly shows the super cops using a fully integrated and realtime database with a 3D interface that gives them any subjects DNA, current location (which is usually, oddly enough, already in one of their questioning rooms), all related gun registrations, etc. Naturally, I assume that all local Georgia law enforcement agencies are equipped with this technology (what do they call it? SCMODS?).

Obviously the good sheriff is trying to pull the wool over our eyes here....
 

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Discussion Starter #15
SheriffOconee said:
EJR, we write our own subpoenas too. In fact, if you were a defendant in Oconee County Superior Court, you could write you own subpoenas too. We get subpoenas all the time from a variety of sources. Any idiot can write a subpoena, even a Federal Agent.
It is getting the Judge to SIGN it that it becomes problematic. No RAS, no PC???? Forget it.
I will assure you that WE write our own subpoenas, then the DA has to sign off, then a Superior Court Judge has to sign off....my understanding of the Federal system is very similar
Great! Thanks for clearing that up SherrifOconee, I feel much better now. I went and did some research on subpoenas on the federal level and everything you say, is of course 100% correct even know. I'm just really glad to see the Patriot Act didn't change anything with regards to subpoenas. :righton:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
RedDawnTheMusical said:
SheriffOconee said:
EJR, did you read the third slide in the PowerPoint presentation???
There are several ways to get the records, including a search warrant.
It is like any other kind of tracking we do using various corporate outlets. We have to convince a Judge that we have PC to believe not only that the credit card, cellphone, debit card will be used, but that the information obtained is necessary to the advancement of the case, and can't be gathered by any other means.
THEN we have to deal with the cell phone, credit card, or whatever company, and have a line of communication open with them so we can know if we are pinging a phone, tracking a credit card, whatever.
I am certain that none of this is really a surprise to anyone
Completely false and misleading. Virtually every episode of CSI Miami I watch clearly shows the super cops using a fully integrated and realtime database with a 3D interface that gives them any subjects DNA, current location (which is usually, oddly enough, already in one of their questioning rooms), all related gun registrations, etc. Naturally, I assume that all local Georgia law enforcement agencies are equipped with this technology (what do they call it? SCMODS?).

Obviously the good sheriff is trying to pull the wool over our eyes here....
:lol: We know the good Sheriff would never do anything like that. I had a college friend go on and become a CSI, and she just died laughing when I asked her how accurate that show was! She said it was a lot like watching COPS. As with COPS it is sometimes examples of what not to do. As with CSI Miami, she said they can't do most of the junk that they put on that show. She said it was a big joke. :righton:
 

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ERJ,

The investigating entity/party seeking the information actually writes the subpoena. A subpoena is a meaningless piece(s) of paper until a judge with jurisdiction over the case signs it.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
legacy38 said:
ERJ,

The investigating entity/party seeking the information actually writes the subpoena. A subpoena is a meaningless piece(s) of paper until a judge with jurisdiction over the case signs it.
Thank you Legacy. I appreciate the clarity here. I'm not an attorney, so I wasn't exactly sure how all that worked now, even in light of recent anti-terrorist legislation. :righton:
 

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The other thing to remember about subpoenas is that if the subpoena is no good if what is being subpoenaed doesn't exist. In other words, you don't have to create a record just to satisfy a subpoena.

You could subpoena the number of paper towels I use in a day, but if I don't keep records of my paper towel usage then the subpoena is worthless.

I once investigated a stalking case in which I learned of incidents in which the suspect had stalked the victim as far back as middle school (not in Oconee). It was so bad that the school assigned an adult employee to escort the suspect from class to class to keep him in line. I subpoenaed the school board seeking all documentation of incidents involving the suspect and victim. The school had never put anything in writing involving the two particular people together; so, they had no records to provide to me (supposedly)

It was up to the school system to comply with the subpoena. I wasn't physically pulling the records personally. I could have done a warrant and physically seized the suspect's entire record provided a judge signed the warrant. To head that off, the school officials wrote a letter detailing some of the incidents that had taken place, and the letter was sufficient for what I needed.

The suspect later agreed to a court order preventing contact between the victim and him, but he was later arrested for stalking several other victims.
 

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Legacy, Sheriff...stop trying to cover for the feds. Sure, they need a Judge to sign it. There are plenty that will that sit on the secret panel of Fed judges, created after 9/11 and help make things all legal....to combat Terrorism and all...
 
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