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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/12/29/rationing-revealed-heart-obamacare/

For the Democrats/Independants on this forum, this is an honest question. Is this the outcome you expected when you voted for Democrats, or were you mislead?

Did you expect this kind of intrusion into your personal healthcare decisions? Are you concerned that your liberty has been undermined (again), or are you happy with letting the federal government assume the power of life and death over you? http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=54587

Did you expect your elected leaders to use closed-door dealmaking, buyoffs, secrecy, hiding the provisions until after the bill was passed, as their means of ramming bad legislation down our throats? If it's such a great program, why hide it?

In short, are you happy with this ruling class versus "we the people" style of governing?

Is this what you voted for?

Will you vote Democrat again?
 

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And what was the Republican plan? None. To kill Medicare and Social Security.
 

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I'm afraid the Republican elites are just as much in favor of this if not more. Happy to have the Dems take the hit. Do the math: not enough money for unlimited healthcare for everyone. What cannot happen will not, and it does not matter which party is in power.

And we are stuck with ObamaCare, same deal as above. It will not be repealed and funding will not be withheld except on a some few peripheral things to distract and pacify the posturing Republican politicos.
 

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Verbal101 said:
Will you vote Democrat again?
I'm a "never say never" kind of person, but at this point I cannot see myself ever voting for a GOP candidate again, for any office. I know everyone has their various reasons, but for me, the Terri Schivo debacle a few years back was the final nail in the GOP coffin.

Regarding "end of life planning", speaking from the personal experience of having lost two mother-in-laws to cancer, each at opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to how their end days transpired, I can tell you with no uncertainty that end of life planning is a good thing, not a bad thing.
 

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mb90535im said:
Verbal101 said:
Will you vote Democrat again?
Regarding "end of life planning", speaking from the personal experience of having lost two mother-in-laws to cancer, each at opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to how their end days transpired, I can tell you with no uncertainty that end of life planning is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I am not opposed to end of life counseling I'm against it involving government.
 

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I heard a quote from a girl stranded at a NY airport this morning.
She asked who was going to pay her wages. She's starting out
the new year in the hole. These people are so brainwashed with
entitlement thinking that they can't see how pathetic they are.
They have forgotten the faces of their ancestors and the sacrifices
made for our liberty, and they are more than willing to trade away
some of that hard earned liberty for a little comfort.
 

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I vote Libertarian

The GOP is no different than the Democratic Party.


The GOP fought so hard against Obamacare last summer because of cuts proposed to Medicare (government run health care) This is the same program they fought so hard to prevent. Now they are fighting to keep it. Just a bunch of hypocrites.
 

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pml said:
And what was the Republican plan? None. To kill Medicare and Social Security.
Well, with the budget continuing to grow, and entitlements being the culprits, isn't that a laudable goal?

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/78xx/doc7851 ... ending.pdf

Something has to be done. These programs cannot continue.

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=3521&type=0

Great visual:
http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook ... t-spending
Spending on national defense, a core constitutional function, has declined significantly over time, despite wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Meanwhile, spending on the three major entitlementsâ€"Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaidâ€"has more than tripled and is rapidly crowding out other programs.
Social Security, medicaire, and medicaid, just those three things, will exceed all federal revenue by 2055. What then?
http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook ... me-economy

We have to tackle entitlements. We have to de-entitle people. The longer we wait, the worse the problem will become.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Malum Prohibitum said:
pml said:
And what was the Republican plan? None. To kill Medicare and Social Security.
Well, with the budget continuing to grow, and entitlements being the culprits, isn't that a laudable goal?

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/78xx/doc7851 ... ending.pdf

Something has to be done. These programs cannot continue.

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=3521&type=0

Great visual:
http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook ... t-spending
Spending on national defense, a core constitutional function, has declined significantly over time, despite wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Meanwhile, spending on the three major entitlementsâ€"Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaidâ€"has more than tripled and is rapidly crowding out other programs.
Social Security, medicaire, and medicaid, just those three things, will exceed all federal revenue by 2055. What then?
http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook ... me-economy

We have to tackle entitlements. We have to de-entitle people. The longer we wait, the worse the problem will become.
Exactly.

What irks me about Republicans is not the platform, but the execution.

As to the original question: if Democrats = more entitlement spending and Republicans = less entitlement spending, and entitlement spending = a train wreck already in progress, why vote for accelerating the crash? What is the logic supporting it?

Note that "Republicans are just as bad" isn't an answer. What I'd like to understand is the world view that leads to a vote for the Democratic platform. Is the platform that was promised different than the results delivered, or are Democratic voters pleased with these results?
 

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Verbal101 said:
What I'd like to understand is the world view that leads to a vote for the Democratic platform. Is the platform that was promised different than the results delivered, or are Democratic voters pleased with these results?
I think you misunderstand the mind of 50% of the voting public.
Results are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the promise.

That's why making laws is important - it's proof of 'good intentions'.
Whether they work or not doesn't even enter into the picture.
 

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Malum Prohibitum said:
We have to tackle entitlements. We have to de-entitle people. The longer we wait, the worse the problem will become.
Yahoo!! California is aprime example of this, as when I left 18 years ago, entitlements were, and still are, most of the outlay of that state. Pop that nipple out of your mouth!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
groats said:
Verbal101 said:
What I'd like to understand is the world view that leads to a vote for the Democratic platform. Is the platform that was promised different than the results delivered, or are Democratic voters pleased with these results?
I think you misunderstand the mind of 50% of the voting public.
Results are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the promise.

That's why making laws is important - it's proof of 'good intentions'.
Whether they work or not doesn't even enter into the picture.
I appreciate your comments but want to clarify that I understand pretty well the motivations of the moocher class. You're right - it's getting dangerously close to 50% of the population that votes merely on the promise of a "benefit", paid out by the government, forcibly taken from those who earned it.

But I know there are some much more educated, well informed people on this forum that vote Democrat. These are people that do not directly benefit from hand out, entitlement legislation. In fact, they pay for it just like the rest of us. In my worldview (summarized in my signature block), these people should be concerned that government entities at all levels are misusing their money, encroaching on their liberty, and endangering their self-sufficiency.

So it's not the minds of the entitlement class that I want to understand. It's the minds of working class, self-sufficient people, who essentially vote to destroy themselves, which interests me.
 

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You say moocher, but will you feel entitled to social security when you retire?
 

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mb90535im said:
Verbal101 said:
Will you vote Democrat again?
I'm a "never say never" kind of person, but at this point I cannot see myself ever voting for a GOP candidate again, for any office. I know everyone has their various reasons, but for me, the Terri Schivo debacle a few years back was the final nail in the GOP coffin.

Regarding "end of life planning", speaking from the personal experience of having lost two mother-in-laws to cancer, each at opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to how their end days transpired, I can tell you with no uncertainty that end of life planning is a good thing, not a bad thing.
You believe the government being involved in your or your family's end-of-life-planning is a good thing. Got it.
 

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Verbal101 said:
So it's not the minds of the entitlement class that I want to understand. It's the minds of working class, self-sufficient people, who essentially vote to destroy themselves, which interests me.
No, you misunderstand totally.
I was not speaking of entitlements at all.

I refer to the division of people into two groups - those who live in reality, and those who live in a dream world.

Example:
Reality shows that gun control only disarms law-abiding citizens, not criminals, therefore more laws aren't the answer.

Dreamers think "yet another law" will somehow make the dangerous guns go away. They ignore any evidence to the contrary.

Now, while most people here, regardless of political persuasion, fall into the Reality division when it comes to guns, that doesn't mean they have the same rational approach to other things.

These are the folks who think that if they sing "I believe I can fly" loudly enough, they won't notice the 'splat' when they hit the pavement.
 

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Verbal101 said:
But I know there are some much more educated, well informed people on this forum that vote Democrat. These are people that do not directly benefit from hand out, entitlement legislation. In fact, they pay for it just like the rest of us. In my worldview (summarized in my signature block), these people should be concerned that government entities at all levels are misusing their money, encroaching on their liberty, and endangering their self-sufficiency.

So it's not the minds of the entitlement class that I want to understand. It's the minds of working class, self-sufficient people, who essentially vote to destroy themselves, which interests me.
I'm not sure I can say anything that would cause you to understand why I vote the way I do, but I'll give it a shot.

I'm certianly not what you might call well educated. I have a high school diploma and some college and was somehow fortunate enough to get onto the computer sciences field way back in the 70's when it was an emerging field with endless opportunity. I have worked myself up to a decent middle-class wage (by N GA standards) over the past 35 years and while not weathly by any means, live comfortably, far more so than many across my family in past generations in my family.

I vote Democrat vs. GOP primiarly based on what I consider to be culture war issues on which I feel the GOP is consistently on the wrong side.

Regarding financial policy, I believe the Reagan era tax cuts, without corrosponding spending cuts, along with the failed vodoo ecomomic theory of "tinkle down" have led to the near completee destruction of the strong post WWII middle class that was built primairly by a strongly weighted progressive tax structure. I believe we should go back to a more progressive tax structure which in my opinion will strengthen the middle class again, fueling spending by the middle class, in return fueling the economy to get us back to the growth the nation saw in the 50's and into the 60's.

I voted Democratic in the most recent election based largely on what I saw as culture war issues and in addition on the promise (which was not delivered) of rolling back the tax cuts given to the wealthiest top 2% of Americans. Those tax cuts were not used to create jobs as intended, instead they were used to off-shore American middle class jobs and create an unprecidented amount of wealty at the top of the US economic scale. I think this unchecked greed is the root of many of our nation's problems.

Questions?
 

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Hock25 said:
You believe the government being involved in your or your family's end-of-life-planning is a good thing. Got it.
I believe having consuling and resources available is a good thing, yes.
 

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:roll:

Edit to add an eye roll for gubment deciding who dies and who lives: :roll:
 

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Hock25 said:
mb90535im said:
Verbal101 said:
Will you vote Democrat again?
I'm a "never say never" kind of person, but at this point I cannot see myself ever voting for a GOP candidate again, for any office. I know everyone has their various reasons, but for me, the Terri Schivo debacle a few years back was the final nail in the GOP coffin.

Regarding "end of life planning", speaking from the personal experience of having lost two mother-in-laws to cancer, each at opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to how their end days transpired, I can tell you with no uncertainty that end of life planning is a good thing, not a bad thing.
You believe the government being involved in your or your family's end-of-life-planning is a good thing. Got it.
Two points. This is what a living will is for. Who counsels you makes no difference. Case in point, a friends 88 year-old father is in a VA hospital. He has heart problems and Alzheimers. Doctors find out that he has stomach cancer and want to operate. A normal person says WTH would that accomplish other than send more money to the doctors-- and drag the 87 year old wife through more misery. That makes sense to you?

Second, SS is funded sufficiently through 2040, minimum. If it was funded and run correctly, it wouldn't be in the shape it is today as a general pass around state welfare rules. Most people here had better pray it is still functioning because their 401k, (which by the way was designed to set a person up for a retirement that included both SS AND a pension) ain't gonna cut it. Tell me that because it might run out in 2055 or 2070 is reason to dismantle it? That's BS, sorry.
 

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Hock25 said:
:roll:

Edit to add an eye roll for gubment deciding who dies and who lives: :roll:
Under the new policy, outlined in a Medicare regulation, the government will pay doctors who advise patients on options for end-of-life care, which may include advance directives to forgo aggressive life-sustaining treatment.
How to you get "gubment deciding who dies and who lives" out of that statement? When my 2nd mother-in-law was in her final stages of pancreatic cancer the doctor in the hospital one day came in and said, "I'm sorry, we have fought a good fight, but we are not going to win this war. If we continue treatments at this point it is most likely you will not leave this hospital alive." I see nothing wrong with that advice. We went home, employed hospice care, and spent a good final 3-4 weeks with my mother-in-law who passed peacfull in her bed, at home.
 
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