David's Gun Room, Norcross law vs policy

Discussion in 'Ranges, Dealers & Smiths' started by futureusr, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. futureusr

    futureusr A Typical Cat

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    Greetings all, I am new to the site having recently returned to GA from PA.

    Today I dropped by David's Gun Room on Buford hwy in Norcross, GA. and a Tactical Solutions pac-lite barrel/receiver caught my eye for my mkIII 22/45. After agreeing upon the price I handed over my new temp paper GA drivers license and was asked if I had moved from out of state. I was then told that it was law that I had to be a resident 90 days with at least three consecutive months of utility bills to confirm my state residency. I was not familiar with any BATF law or regulation to that effect so I assumed I must have missed something in the GA firearms laws when I had researched them earlier. Figuring I was ignorant on the subject and that the FFL dealer would most likely be correct would continue the transaction and was told I could pay for the item to ensure I received the agreed upon price now and return in 90 days to run the PICS or GA equivalent and pick up the item.

    Once home I looked up the GA firearms laws again to educate myself and confirmed there is no such law. I then did a search of the BATF site and found the policy/regulation to establish state residency is basically to claim residency in the state and maintain a residence in the state. The only mention of a waiting period to establish state residency applies only to LEGAL IMMIGRANTS, not citizens.

    Figuring this was just the stores misinterpretation of the BATF regulations I was first informed I was incorrect. When I insisted that this information is directly form the the BATF site I was humored and then told law or not it was store policy and that they had to comply with a lot of "unofficial" BATF procedures and policies despite the letter of the law. This being the case I asked that they just run the checks and if I am declined for the 90 day residency issue I will accept that. I was told they would not and I must wait 90 days first. In that event I asked that they return my money and I will purchase the item a another FFL that does not have such a policy. Guy sorta got a bit of an attitude at that point. All sales are final and they would be doing me a favor by returning my money. I asked if they would wait 90 days if they could just go to another dealer and get the item now. The guy said sure, maybe I would... come on, give me a break!!! Also, what sale was final when the transaction was never completed? They received the money but I did not receive any good or service in exchange yet so what sale actually occurred? Well moot point as I was refunded fully but the attitude was not welcome or appreciated.

    I don't know anything else about this dealer as this was my first and last interaction with them so just be advised I reckon.

    Note, I saw a few of the Glenn Beck safe deals while I was there. I personally do not want to support an operation that does not support my rights.
     
  2. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    So for people who have recently moved from one state to another, just what kind of documentation should the FFL dealer get?

    Just a paper temporary license, which has no security features and anybody could forge / counterfeit?

    Regular state-issued ID cards have a bunch of security features in them to make them harder to fake, and the photo requirement makes it harder for someone else of roughly the same age and size and eye color to use it.

    I can see both sides of this. BATF is really cracking down on dealers, and innocent mistakes are held against the dealer just as if they were willful violations of the law.

    I don't know what the law SAYS on this subject, but I'd say a reasonable way to address the problem would be to have the Georgia FFL dealer ask for both your temporary license and a notarized statement from you announcing your change of residency and confirming both your past address (the one that would be in the government's databases) and the new one. Then the dealer would take your photo and get a fingerprint from you (pawn shops and check cashing places do this all the time).

    That way, if you get the gun today but later it is found that you weren't really the person named on that paper temporary license, or that you didn't really live at the Georgia address indicated, the cops will have the kind of really good evidence that it would take to prosecute you later. (AGAIN, this isn't how the law is, and it's not BATFE's policy. It's just my suggestion for how it "should be" done.)
     

  3. futureusr

    futureusr A Typical Cat

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    "So for people who have recently moved from one state to another, just what kind of documentation should the FFL dealer get?

    Just a paper temporary license, which has no security features and anybody could forge / counterfeit?"


    IMO I should only be required to provide what the law states as required. Nothing more, nothing less.

    There are several reasons I could have for a paper drivers license such as I lost my plastic one or I have relocated WITHIN the state. Had I not responded my paper DL was due to relocation from another state what then? not lie mind you, just not respond. If 90 days prior residency is a requirement it would should be on the background check forms and if not, then it is not a requirement.

    Seems simple to me. it only gets confusing when we start arguing all the BS that is NOT LAW.
     
  4. foxtrotterz

    foxtrotterz New Member

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    I got really ticked at another location when they asked if I currently resided at the address on my license. I told them no, I was in college and kept all my addresses on file with everyone the same and used my parents address. I was told by a cop, that it is fine to use a parents address as your permanent address and no need in changing a license every time you move around in college. Well, they wouldn't hear it, they told me to have a good day.

    I have yet to spend another dollar there. But I do support my other local gun shops. Hey, FFL/Gun shops have every right to cancel the transaction at any time. It is their business. Sorry you got caught in the middle of it, if you stick around in Georiga, you should look to join groups like Georgia Carry, to help fight for your rights at the state level where they count the most.
     
  5. futureusr

    futureusr A Typical Cat

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    Hey foxtrotterz, thanks for the support.

    I have no problem with any business having polices that they are clear about up front. I can then choose to interact with this dealer or not having been fully and correctly informed. Having this dealer pass of store policy as state or federal law was not right. Then to jump back with attitude that they are doing me a favor when asking for the return of my money as "I" now choose not to do business with this dealer. Outrageous! The policy I could understand if explained clearly, the attitude the dealer and salesman displayed when all was made clear is unacceptable.
     
  6. mathar1

    mathar1 New Member

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    A paper drivers license is sufficient. The state determines residency BEFORE they issue you even a temporary paper license and there are water marks to ensure it is real. Whoever it was is full of crap and just letting the ATF tell them how to run their business. Go to another store that actually follows the law and doesn't make $^%t up as they go along.


    And yes I manage a gun store so I am pretty sure I KNOW the law straight from the ATF workshops. :wink:
     
  7. pml

    pml Active Member

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    I'll back David's Gun Room. I'd no more take a temporary license than I would take a starter personal check. I don't blame them a bit.

    They don't have to sell to you and you are free to go elsewhere. My experience was much different. I've bought two guns there, had a couple transferred there, and received outstanding service every time.
     
  8. drtybykr

    drtybykr New Member

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    Just don't try to buy primers there$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :screwy:
     
  9. mathar1

    mathar1 New Member

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    I agree they have the choice to do whatever they choose but don't try to hide behind the ATF. Just have the balls to say THEY don't accept temporary ID's as their choice...not some BS law. :sly:
     
  10. futureusr

    futureusr A Typical Cat

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    I'll back David's Gun Room. I'd no more take a temporary license than I would take a starter personal check. I don't blame them a bit.

    They don't have to sell to you and you are free to go elsewhere. My experience was much different. I've bought two guns there, had a couple transferred there, and received outstanding service every time.


    let me ensure I understand the parameters of your position...

    Do you support David's Gun Room representing store policy as state or federal law?

    Do you support David's Gun Room policy that all sales are final even when they have mislead the customer about the what is law and what is store policy?

    Do you support David's Gun Room position that my sale was final although I had received nothing?

    Do you support David's Gun Room making rude and pointless comments to the customer that they are doing the customer a favor by returning the customers money when the customer has chosen not to do business with them?

    Do you support David's Gun Room right to terminate a transaction at any time but the customer does not?

    I think some of us are missing that fact that it was I who terminated the transaction once I fully understood the policies I would be required to comply with. So only the dealer is supported in terminating a transaction he finds undesirable?
     
  11. BSCLibertarian

    BSCLibertarian I'm kind of a big deal

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    I think the ATF has achieved one of their goals (and a goal of the anti 2A crowd as well)......they have made law abiding dealers so afraid of getting in trouble that they make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to buy things than the law makes it.
     
  12. martin_j001

    martin_j001 Active Member

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    THIS. :righton:

    futureusr, I'm with you though, I think its BS the way you've been treated. If that is the way the store wants to operate, and they clearly explain that to you, then they shouldn't be surprised if and when you say you want your money back, and it shouldn't be an issue in giving it back either. It should be a non-issue, but they made it one, and most likely have lost at least one customer in this ordeal.