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Macktee said:
I believe tace said it best, it's not the various religions, it's the people who twist those religions to justify their own hatreds and cruelty.

Yes, there are some passages in the Koran that instruct followers to perform hateful acts, but there are equally reprehensible passages in the bible.

What course of action to take comes down to the major conflict that's been going on since time immoral. The conflict between the inherent good in most people vs. the evil in the few. Unfortunately, even good people can be led astray and convinced doing evil is acceptable behavior. All that's required is a good and believable reason justifying such behavior. Sadly, religion has been used to that end countless times the world over throughout human history.
** Warning: Opinions ahead **

So I ask, since you say that the Bible is just as bad as the Koran... Why is it that Muslim people always seem to be in the news these days because of their hateful and subhuman actions? After all, its the people, right? They just happen to be Muslim people. I don't see many Christians beheading dissidents in the streets, burning kids alive, stoning teenage girls to death, or launching Qassam rockets toward schools and daycare centers.

People often confuse Americans with Christians. They are not one in the same and in no way are they related. "But the Americans (read Christians) invaded Iraq for their oil! Thousands of Iraqis have died!" However you feel about the war in Iraq, nobody can say that the war makers did so in the name of God and if they were motivated by greed or revenge, then they are not Christians no matter what they claim to be.

Sure this country was founded by Christian gentlemen and our very nation, one unified nation, is under God. But subhuman animals in this country who rape, rob, and kill are mostly never Christians. Christians do not do those things in the name of God. Muslims do. Are true Muslims peaceful? Are the barbaric animals only Muslim in name, or state? Maybe so, but they most always do so in the name of God and their religion of peace.©

There's your difference, folks. I'm strictly speaking about present times. History is just that, history. And nothing you do today changes history so historic events are really just a distraction when debating current events. Seems as though most Christians have learned from history, others haven't.
 

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Malum Prohibitum said:
"They dumped gasoline, burned me, and ran," Youssif told CNN, pointing down the street with his scarred hands where his attackers fled.

As he sucked his thumb, he repeated, "I was burning." He tried to put the flames out himself.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/ ... index.html
Well, I was not meaning to start a religious debate. But I cried when I read this, and I thought that others here should read it if they had not.

The thought of a 5 year old boy trying to put out the gasoline fueled flames engulfing him while alone in the street . . .
 

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Yes MP, I'm also sorry the thread drifted off the subject. Perhaps, because we find it so difficult to deal with the unimaginable pain and suffering inflicted on this little child. I know my stomach churned while reading about him.

I'm not trying to start a religious war or offend anyone for their personal beliefs. I'm just saying religion has been used to justify hatred for as long as their has been religion. There are some horrendous passages in the Koran. There are also some in the bible. Remember the part about children who don't respect their parents should be killed by having rocks thrown at them?

Fortunately, most adherents of most religions rightly ignore the bad stuff. Not even the most orthodox of the Orthodox Jews follows all the rules laid down in Leviticus!

Unfortunately, there are some hate-filled people who follow the hate-filled admonitions of their religions. In today's world, most of them are indeed Muslims. But some are Christian, Jewish, Sikh and even Hindu! It seems, there's more than enough hate to go around...
 

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Malum, it was a very sad story, as are most that are about young children being victimized by others.

I didn't think my reaction warranted any attacks. The logic in the argument didn't flow well in my opinion. I *think* most christians are over the crusades, but maybe not. I *think* most have learned from it...but maybe not.

In my post I also did not hold ALL Muslims responsible for the actions of some (I called them a "portion"). I was pretty clear in my differentiation. I do not study the Quran, and I don't want to. But from what I have learned, Muslims also have a very bloody past. Do I hold all Muslims accountable for what was done over 1,000 years ago? No, that would be ludicrous. However, I will hold extremists accountable when they announce that infidels should be killed...and then follow through on the promise as they often do.

Anyway...I don't think its hypocritical to denounce something just because you might have a past too. If we all did that for fear of being hypocritical...nobody could say anything to anyone about anything. Parents would be screwed thats for sure. Seems like a childish argument to me.

As a Christian, I am offended by being lumped in with others claiming to be Christian, but yet clearly do not follow scripture (such as the sight that you linked to Budder). I don't condone their behavior...and in fact I do denounce it.

I assume that the Muslims that aren't extremists do the same of the people that are making a bad name of their religion...don't they?
 

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pro2am said:
budder said:
Malum Prohibitum said:
budder said:
But you do still drive drunk: http://www.godhatesfags.com/
You think pro2am hates somebody while pretending not to?
Well, yes, but that's beside the point.
Budder. This is a pretty serious charge. What are your grounds for this accusation?
Your analogy is that Christians have learned from their past. I submit WBC as evidence that they have not. There is no "charge" or "accusation."
 

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budder said:
pro2am said:
budder said:
Malum Prohibitum said:
budder said:
But you do still drive drunk: http://www.godhatesfags.com/
You think pro2am hates somebody while pretending not to?
Well, yes, but that's beside the point.
Budder. This is a pretty serious charge. What are your grounds for this accusation?
Your analogy is that Christians have learned from their past. I submit WBC as evidence that they have not. There is no "charge" or "accusation."
I beg to differ. I was named in the above as being someone who hates somebody while pretending not to. I take that personally.

As my other posts have stated (in different fashion), claiming to be Christian does not automatically make one Christian. And I am sure that anyone that follows biblical scriptures would have a problem acknowledging WBC as mainstream Christian.

The original issue that I have is using the Crusades as an argument that no Christian today can criticize a brutal segment of another religion and I've already commented on that in another post above.

I imagine that mainstream Christians today would acknowledge that it was wrong to aggressively kill out of hatred and in the name of God, and in that vain, I still contend that Christians have learned from their past.
 

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AeroShooter said:
Well, now that we got that all sorted out, can we at least pin the Armenian Genocide on tace? Please?

(with apologies to tace; I'm only joking)
You could try, tough not only that I wasn't born at the time (only missed it by a few generations) but also I have Armenians in my family. Ironically, my great grand parents family was betrayed to the French troops by the Armenian house staff.

I know you are joking :)
 

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Hey Tace, not to get too far off topic, but I have always wondered about the Greek / Turkish problem and while I know some of the issues surrounding the issue, I have never talked to a Turkish person about their personal point of view on the subject. Do you mind giving me your outlook on it?
 

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tace said:
Ironically, my great grand parents family was betrayed to the French troops by the Armenian house staff.
Ah, ha! :D So you admit you bear a grudge against the Armenians! :lol:
 

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tace said:
AeroShooter said:
Well, now that we got that all sorted out, can we at least pin the Armenian Genocide on tace? Please?

(with apologies to tace; I'm only joking)
You could try, tough not only that I wasn't born at the time (only missed it by a few generations) but also I have Armenians in my family. Ironically, my great grand parents family was betrayed to the French troops by the Armenian house staff.

I know you are joking :)
Actually, I've got you beat on the cultural atrocity front: my family on my mother's side is German. Grandfather served in the wehrmacht -- did not come back from Russia. I've never felt any sense of burden or shame for the Nazi's did to the Jews... and others. My family's hands are clean on this one.

I absolutely do not play the identity politics game. The burden for those acts, as well as all the actions we've been discussing in this thread, lie on those who committed them.

I did have a school chum, who was Jewish, play the holocaust card on me once and tell me that I owed him (in the high school sense of the word). I point out my father was American and so I played the liberation card and told him he was welcome... talk about a red face!
 

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AeroShooter said:
Actually, I've got you beat on the cultural atrocity front: my family on my mother's side is German. Grandfather served in the wehrmacht -- did not come back from Russia. I've never felt any sense of burden or shame for the Nazi's did to the Jews... and others. My family's hands are clean on this one.
Ezekiel 18: 20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Although long since removed from the days when I was performing missionary work in Trinidad, I still remember much of the Bible. I think that if you are a Christian, the Bible states clearly that you only have to be concerned about your personal actions while on the face of this Earth.

/ hope no one thinks I am preaching
// haven't stepped foot in a church in years
/// thinks slashies are cool and shouldn't be limited to Fark.com
 

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I beg to differ. I was named in the above as being someone who hates somebody while pretending not to. I take that personally.
You can beg all you want, but it's irrelevant to this discussion. But, if you want an explanation, I think most people hate someone while pretending not to. It's against human nature not to.

As my other posts have stated (in different fashion), claiming to be Christian does not automatically make one Christian. And I am sure that anyone that follows biblical scriptures would have a problem acknowledging WBC as mainstream Christian.
Then why are the actions of extremists who claim to be Muslim taken as the views and actions of all Muslims! The parallel is not hard to see if you'll step back and stop taking everything personally.

The original issue that I have is using the Crusades as an argument that no Christian today can criticize a brutal segment of another religion and I've already commented on that in another post above.

I imagine that mainstream Christians today would acknowledge that it was wrong to aggressively kill out of hatred and in the name of God, and in that vain, I still contend that Christians have learned from their past.
So what?
 

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budder said:
Then why are the actions of extremists who claim to be Muslim taken as the views and actions of all Muslims!
budder, quote three examples of this from this web site or knock it off. Bickering for the sake of bickering gets a little old.

If there is a problem with people taking the views of extremists and claiming it is the "views and actions of all Muslims" (like, perhaps, tace), then it will be dealt with. You can help us get started by posting such examples in your next post on this thread.
 

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budder said:
JiG said:
AV8R said:
Religion of peace, my ass. :evil:
+1

You know what their definition of "peace" is don't you?
The same as Christians during the Crusade?
Which came first, the Moorish invasion in Europe or the crusades? Saying that the Christians shouldn't have retaliated for that would be like saying the US shouldn't have gone after Al Qaeda for 9/11.
 
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