Corps of Engineers areas off limits...with an exception

Discussion in 'Places Off-Limits' started by mzmtg, Mar 26, 2007.

  1. mzmtg

    mzmtg Active Member

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    Here's my letter to the District Engineer:

     
  2. kkennett

    kkennett New Member

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    I am interested in this, as I have a place on Hartwell.
     

  3. mzmtg

    mzmtg Active Member

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    IF I get a response, I'm sure it will be the same as the one I got from GA DNR, "Guns are banned for your safety."
     
  4. Adam5

    Adam5 Atlanta Overwatch

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    I'm interested also. I'm 10 minutes from Lake Lanier. I hate snakes and it would be nice to carry when fishing, especially walking around the shoreline.
     
  5. mzmtg

    mzmtg Active Member

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    I think I'll start calling this the "Good Ole Boy Provision."

    The District Engineer or the Director of the State DNR is the sole decision maker when it comes to carrying guns for defense in these places.

    I'm sure their personal friends wouldn't have much of a problem getting "written permission" if they wanted it.

    :x
     
  6. luke0927

    luke0927 New Member

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    I like to fish on below the damn on the chattahoche and im out on lanier.....would be nice to carry but good luck on getting written permission.
     
  7. MLS 4506

    MLS 4506 Active Member

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    let us know what the response is,i'm 150 ft. from the lake,have a dock that i pay rent to the corp for the permit.it really bothers me that i can't carry while i stand on my own property(dock)dissarmed :cry:
     
  8. chp5

    chp5 New Member

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    Agreed. We are on Lake Lanier a lot. My son and I also go fishing below the damn on the Hootch.

    I don't like hiking through the woods without packing.

    I looked at 36CFR327.13 - which prohibits carrry on CoE property - but I could not find the penalties for violations?

    Anyone know? Thanks.
     
  9. luke0927

    luke0927 New Member

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    yep im 5 minutes from the Lake and would like to carry with out breaking the law....also do a lot of trout fishing on the Chattahoochee and would like to be able to "legally" carry under my waders.
     
  10. Gunstar1

    Gunstar1 Administrator

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    Had to hunt for this one...

     
  11. chp5

    chp5 New Member

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    Thanks! That seems rather rough.

    Silly question - the parks and the corp line around the lake are clearly corp property. I wonder if the lake itself is considered corp property. Probably so . . .
     
  12. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Something tells me it would have come by now . . .
     
  13. mzmtg

    mzmtg Active Member

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    You may be right.

    They are probably consulting with the chief in Gwinnett to formulate a reply.
     
  14. chp5

    chp5 New Member

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    Let us know what happens. If it works, I'll cut and paste your email into my own :D
     
  15. Malum Prohibitum

    Malum Prohibitum Moderator Staff Member

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    Did you?
     
  16. kkennett

    kkennett New Member

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    I've recently had this discussion, which is now pertinent with HB 89's passage. Many state parks and WMA's are on CoE land. Clearly 89 now changes state law to allow carry there, but does nothing for the federal provision. Above one asks about the penalties for violations of the CoE rules. Those are contained here:

    http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/ ... 327.25.htm

    Sec. 327.25 Violations of rules and regulations.

    (a) Any person who violates the provisions of the regulations in
    this part, other than for a failure to pay authorized recreation use
    fees as separately provided for in Sec. 327.23, may be punished by a
    fine of not more than $5,000 or imprisonment for not more than six
    months or both and may be tried and sentenced in accordance with the
    provisions of section 3401 of Title 18, United States Code. Persons
    designated by the District Commander shall have the authority to issue a
    citation for violation of the regulations in this part, requiring any
    person charged with the violation to appear before the United States
    Magistrate within whose jurisdiction the affected water resources
    development project is located (16 U.S.C. 460d).
    (b) Any person who commits an act against any official or employee
    of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers that is a crime under the provisions
    of section 111 or section 1114 of Title 18, United States Code or under
    provisions of pertinent state law may be tried and sentenced as further
    provided under Federal or state law, as the case may be.

    [65 FR 6903, Feb. 11, 2000]

    I have not looked up the USC authorizing these regulations. Here's my question: Who are the 'persons designated by the District Commander'. On the CoE lakes and WMA's, I've always seen the state DNR officers doing all the law enforcement. As state officers, they would have no ability to enforce federal law and this reg would be of no consequence to them. Now, were they also federally deputized, or 'designated by the District Commander', they presumably could issue such a federal misdemeanor violation. Does this not undercut a significant portion of 89? How is one to know what part of a WMA forest is owned by pulp companies and what is owned by the Corp? Does the permanent lease of the state of park land on lakes make it effectively state land? Need a little help here.
     
  17. kkennett

    kkennett New Member

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    Bump.

    Seriously, I wasn't just asking rhetorical questions in that last paragraph. Does anyone know of a source for the list of 'designated persons' by the District Commander? Could a FOIA request for such information be sent? Also, how does one research the legal ownership of the state parks around the corp lakes. It seems to me it will soon (after July 1) make a difference who technically owns that land. Did the Feds buy it for the lakes then give it to the states, lease it, etc.? How would one find this type information?
     
  18. RedBeard

    RedBeard New Member

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    Most if not all of WRD Law Enforcement officers are federally deputized.
     
  19. kkennett

    kkennett New Member

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    Redbeard, you may well be correct. I have, however, had experiences that seem to indicate otherwise. I got into in-depth contacts with state DNR guys and federal park rangers on duck hunting along the Chattahoochee River. (The feds claim the park to the water line along the river north of town, even though they don't own it or the adjacent land in many places. Very complicated deal.) Anyway, the state guys that I spoke with consistently said that they could/would issue citations for things like hunting out of season, over the bag limit (i.e., state law issues), but that the federal details were of no concern to them. As far as they were concerned you could float down the river shooting ducks just fine as long as you were in compliance with state regs. They might make a call to the federal guy, but that would be the extent of it. Thus, I see two possibilities: 1) they don't care to bother enforcing federal regs; or 2) they have no authority to enforce federal regs. So I repeat my inquiry: how do I find out if the state DNR guys who drive their boat up and down the lakes can issue me a citation for concealed carry or not? My suspicion is that they will read HB 89's carve out for WMA's, parks, and other areas under their control as relieving them over any authority in this regard.

    Aside: I spend my time on Hartwell, much of which is in SC. SC law specifically allows for folks to carry a gun in the glove compartment of a motor vehicle (which surely a boat is). Thus I would further expect that having such an item on my boat, in the glove box, while riding around on the lake, would not be a SC state problem either. Thus, the fed question is particularly relevant.
     
  20. RedBeard

    RedBeard New Member

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    I don't necessarily know the answer to your questions about carrying in a corps lake. Although one of your questions states "can" and I think the operative word may be "will."

    Also I cannot speak for the LE officers but I know that others in DNR have a less than ideal working relationship with those particular NPS park rangers so that may have a lot to do with the answer you received.

    PM me and I can get you a phone number of someone to call to ask your question to. He will know the answer to the "can" and the "will."