Cop Bad Shoot

Discussion in 'In the News' started by Nemo, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    I really think no on can disagree on this one.

    Dead guy fleeing, at run, away from cop, distance between the 2. No validity to idea of "he pointed gun at me" under these circumstances.

    Based on that video I have to call it a bad shoot. I can think of nothing that could be claimed to have occurred that would let be a good shoot.

    Fact it was 14 year old kid who died on an auto burglary call is irrelevant.

    Nemo


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/arizona-police-body-cam-shows-boy-14-fleeing-before-being-shot-by-cop
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  2. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    The biggest factors I am going to look at is the 14 year old had a gun and broke into a vehicle.

    And this is always the case after a criminal teen is killed while committing a crime...
    Why did a 14 year old not know what's good and what's bad? This is the same thing as the 11 year old girl in the other thread being discussed here. Parents are not teaching their children what's good and what's bad.
     

  3. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    I would tend to agree it's a bad shoot even if the stupid kid did have a (fake) gun. He never turned toward the cop, that I can see, before the cop opened fire. A 1985 Supreme Court case, Tennessee vs. Garner, basically says the same thing. But if he did in fact turn toward the cop then different story.
     
  4. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    We can second guess all we want. Two facts still remain. For the licensed carrier to shoot a fleeing felon with a gun is not acceptable. We do not have the authority to chase down felons with guns. On the other side cops are supposed to chase down felons with guns to protect the community at large. This was a thug 14 year old with a real looking gun fleeing a felony stop by a LEO into the community.
     
  5. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Tenn. v. Garner was explicitly NOT about an armed felon.
    It was a key critical fact to that case that the young burglar was unarmed .
     
  6. Phil1979

    Phil1979 Member Georgia Carry

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    Perp, gun-in-hand, shot, police. No matter how you mix these ingredients or what you add to it, the ruling will always be a good shoot.

    No prosecutor will bring charges, and no jury would convict the officer.

    Not making any judgement as to whether that is right or wrong, just stating the facts.
     
  7. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Aside from the issue of “Was the kid armed (or the cop reasonably mistaking an airsoft 1911 for a real gun)”

    The other issue is “was the kid an imminent danger to others” if he weren’t taken down right then.

    Part of THAT analysis, per Garner and subsequent cases, is considering what crime(s) the felon is suspected of.

    Here, the boy was thought to be stealing from unattended, parked cars in an alley. Perhaps a felony, but certainly not a violent crime. Just a property-theft crime.

    Non-violent low-grade felony + running away with no threats or actions taken against any cop = not an imminent danger to innocent lives.

    Even if he seemed to have a gun, or was stealing that gun he’d just gotten out of the victim’s truck.
     
  8. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    That's what I get for reading too quickly! I'll have to remember that should I ever snatch a bag of Cheetos from Wal-Mart and run.
     
  9. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    Seems to me most here are missing 2 (imho) major factors-- Kid is running away, no turn round to get eyes on cop to shoot while gun is being waved in air and the distance between the 2.

    I would have difficulty making a good hit on a moving or behind cover target at that distance.

    Those are 2 big factors I consider important on the question of how realistic was the threat to the cop was at the time of his firing.

    More I watch that tape and think about it, less clean it gets.

    Nemo
     
  10. Revjamesnixon

    Revjamesnixon New Member

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    But was the kid a threat to citizens ahead of the kid? Could the kid been a threat to those in front of him? That is the questions that you have to ask and why we Tenn v Garner.
     
  11. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    Doesn't matter how you slice it. The cop had a duty to stop the public threat. Armed felon running from a cop could have found cover for an ambush, taken another person hostage or shot innocent by-standers. Yes it turns out it was an airsoft and the kid was only 14. The cop didn't know this at the time because he did not have the chance to ask for ID or about the gun.
     
  12. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    Cop deals with threats as they happen, not as they could or might occur in the future. Kid could have just as easily thrown toy over fence and gone to hide under the backyard bush.

    Bad shoot.

    You run out in the street and shoot the burglar who broke in your house and stole you large collection of big knives. A future Jason. Shoot him as he runs away?

    Nemo
     
  13. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    No. The threat to you is over. It's the job description of the law enforcement to take down the future Jason at that point. Big difference in self defense and law enforcement.
     
  14. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    So I walk down the street open carrying a handgun. The neighborhood has some criminal activity and a cop sees me and asks to talk to me. I shake my head no to his requests to talk and continue walking. Should he shoot me because I might shoot him or the lady down the way? Or just because I don't want to talk to him?

    Shooting someone because of what they might do in the future is bad. If thats in the job description it needs updated.

    Nemo
     
    gunsmoker likes this.
  15. Wegahe

    Wegahe NRA Instructor

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    Totally not the same...

    Are you in the act of committing a felony with a gun in your hand?
    Do you flee the scene of the felony with a gun in your hand?
    Are you ordered to stop and drop the gun after committing the felony?
    Do you continue running with the gun in your hand after being ordered to stop and drop the gun after committing the felony?
    Is a fleeing felon with a gun considered armed and dangerous?

    If you answer yes to all of the above then good shoot.

    Just because you don't want to talk to him then no. Not a good shoot.

    Stop confusing innocent acts with criminal acts.
     
  16. psrumors

    psrumors Well-Known Member

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    Personal responsibility is dead. The kid knew breaking into cars was wrong, otherwise he would not have run. The parents cannot lay any responsibility at the feet of their dead son no matter how responsible he was.

    Bad shoot or not, had the kid not put himself into this situation he would not have been shot.
     
  17. gunsmoker

    gunsmoker Lawyer and Gun Activist

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    Tenn. v. Garner didn’t involve any real or even suspected weapons carried by the “felony” burglary suspect.

    But I’m pretty sure no other court reviewing the issue has ever said that toting a gun alone, not brandishing yet not pointing it at anybody, and without having just made any threats to shoot somebody with it, means cops can shoot fleeing felons in the back.

    And remember in the old days ( let’s say prior to 50 years ago) there were few felony crimes and most of them were capital offenses (you could be executed).


    Now it seems most newly-enacted criminal laws most criminal laws are felonies.

    If a cop is investigating a music store where one night shift manager, Thaddeus X, is known to illegally copy and sell bootleg CD’s, and did make such a sale to a confidential informant recently, that’s a felony.

    If that cop goes to arrest Thaddeus X, but Mr. X runs like a raped ape, and in the process of climbing a fence exposes his holstered pistol, can the cop end the foot chase with a bullet in Thad’s back?

    Why not? You’re saying all felony suspects who are armed (or reasonably assumed to be armed) are automatically classified as too dangerous to the public to be allowed to escape, so if gunning them down is the surest way of arresting them, you’ve got a green light to do it?
     
  18. moe mensale

    moe mensale Well-Known Member

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    I'd posit that with very few exceptions, there have been no new "crimes" developed in the last 50 years. The crimes have always existed but somewhere along the line they have been reclassified from misdemeanors into felonies. Who reclassified them and what was the purpose of the reclassification? Although I can guess with pretty good certainty what the purpose was.
     
  19. Nemo

    Nemo Man of Myth and Legend

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    Let me add one fact to my post above. Bring it into the felony suspect category.

    --Cop sees me while responding to a report of a robbery a block or 2 over.--

    So now he gets to shoot me. Right?

    Nemo
     
  20. diamondback

    diamondback Well-Known Member

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    Running from the cops? I know some groups have an issue with this but most of these "controversial shootings" 100% can be avoided with simple respect for the laws. I am not even getting into the crimes before the chase. What have we seen? Run from the cops=bad. Now it could be good for families as they win lawsuits, but honestly its just common sense.

    I am not the best at vision. I can drive uncorrect which i think means 20/40 I could not see a gun or what he might have had. Also i could not see the perp as the officer could since the body cam was lower. Most states have for police the doctrine of fleeing felon. If AZ has this it was a good shoot. If not i cant say it was good, but i dont think it was an officer jail time shoot. I mean alley, someone running. I could not even esitmate the age in that time period and we all have to remember the adreneline and all that pumping whil e this is going on.